Most Probable Cause of these Flyers??

[RonAKA]

My Savage LRPV in 6BR generally shoots well with the 68-69 grain bullets. The 80 grain is the max for the twist and is good too, but the basic group is a little more ragged. To date I have been shooting three groups of three shots at 100 meters. I've inserted a good set of three consecutive groups below. In these groups I can accept that the size of the groups is a combination of the gun, loads, and my shooting skills (or lack there off!).

The problem is that not all targets turn out this way. The attachments below are other typical targets with the 68 Berger and 69 Berger. Two good groups and then a distinctive flyer. I would like to say the flyer is me, and let the gun and ammo off the hook. But, I absolutely cannot predict them. When I call a pulled shot, I look at the target and the thing goes in the same hole. Then out of the blue when I think I have squeezed it off perfectly I get a flyer.

I would appreciate your thoughts as the most probable cause(s) of this flyer. I have a theory (or two), but will hold off on that as I would like your unbiased opinions, even if it turns out to be me as the problem.

Some details:

Barrel Factory 26", 12 twist
Trigger pull - 7 oz
Components; Bullets as marked, all BR-4 primers & Varget powder
Seating depth (in barrel) - 0.010" long (jam)
Seating depth (in neck) - 0.070 Berger 69, 0.160 Berger 68
Pressure - no signs of excessive
Sweet Spot - seems to be just over 3400 for these bullets based on 300 meter ladder test
Action - Single shot, right bolt, left port Devcon bedded
Lapua Brass - weight sorted
Bullets - body diameter sorted

 

[Rustystud]

It is my humble opinion one learns very little from three shot groups. Five and ten shot groups give a much better indication of what is going on.

Assuming (what a powerful word) neck tension, seating depth, bullet diameter and overall length, primers, brass and powder are constant. One can focus on crown, stress free beding and floating barrel, and trigger pull.

Keeping velocity in the single digits is paramount.

Sight picture, hold and follow through are also important.

It is interesting both Remington and Savage now say 1.5 moa is acceptable with their products.
Nat Lambeth

 

[SS427]

I shoot a .223 LRPV w/ 1:9 twist and I get the same kind of results you do, although I shoot 5 shot groups. Four will go into a tight group with one out there in left or right field. I don't think it is me, and I don't think in your case it is you. I will be interested to hear the opinions of others.

 

[Tozguy]

Ron,
Knowing how well you usually have things wired, this is gonna take some thinking and research. I vaguely remember reading something about top shooters having to 'adjust' for the fifth shot of a group. Will see if I can find it again.

 

[CanusLatransSnpr]

Probably a couple of stupid questions but, I will ask them anyways. Are you letting the barrel cool off between groups? Is the flyer the last shot in that particular group you're shooting or in the middle? I'm wondering if isn't a barrel heat issue! Don't feel like you're alone though, I have the same thing happen to me and it really pisses me off. Especially when I'm doing load development! Please enlighten the me if you get the problem figured out as I would like to know what causes this also.

Mike

 

[Eddie Harren]

Shooting over flags?

 

[Forum Boss]

In the two bottom targets (with red diamonds), if you shot group A, then group B, then Group C, your group size increased with each successive group.

If that is the actual order shot, this would suggest:

a. Barrel heat (causing rising POI) or mirage
b. Driver error (including eye fatigue)
c. Bag settling or bag movement

Re "c", check to see if your bag is moving or rotating on the bench.

 

[RonAKA]

To answer some questions raised so far.

Yes, 5 shots is a truer test of the gun. But, if I can't shoot three shot groups without flyers, I suspect I can't shoot 5 shot either. Neck tension is 0.001". Velocity is certainly not in the single digits, and I suspect my Chrony Alpha Master as being part of it. In the last target Berger 69, Group C, Velocity on shot 1, 2, 3 was 3383, 3405, 3368. The high flyer was the first shot at 3383. Seems to be no correlation to the velocity (if it in fact was accurate).

Yes, I typically let the barrel cool off every 3 shots (1 group) so the outer chamber is just warm to the touch. I do shoot the three shots in the group more quickly to try and minimize any wind change. Perhaps 45 seconds between shots. Sometimes the interval between groups gets extended as the range gets closed for target changes. I don't recall any correlation to an extended cool down and the flyer.

The range has permanent rebar type stakes with a long strip of plastic surveyor tape tied to it. My notes and memory from this day was calm. Plastic flags straight down likely.

Forum Boss the bottom two targets with the red diamonds were shot in order. Top target (Berger 68) shot first, and then the second target (Berger 69) shot next. Within the target they were in order; A, B, C. I did run into significant mirage when it first cooled off in the fall and wind was calm. I installed a mirage shield that is about 3.5" wide, and don't recall any significant mirage as I was using the shield the day those targets were shot. Yes, fatigue or bags moving are possibilities.

 

[Terry]

Pull the brass from your fliers. Any difference from the rest?
Neck thickness? Runout?

 

[1000yardstare]

Have been shooting rifle for 50 years - .22 Match Rifle, benchrest, Palma, F Class - and have experienced many times the dreaded flyer.

Have always been using the best equipment and ammo. Long ago I came to the conclusion that the syndrome called "I-see-a-small-group-and-this-shot-is-going-in-the-same-hole" with the resultant mental and physical flinch is the main source of the flyer.

This is not to say that now and then there will be an equipment failure. But sometimes I think that I could shoot the smallest group if I was shooting blind and couldn`t see the holes in the paper.

 

[necchi]

"with the resultant mental and physical flinch is the main source of the flyer."

THAT! My friend, say's alot!

In all Honesty, "I" am my toughest compition. The most Probable cause is by far the hardest variable to tune, the human.

If you have to make that last shot before they call for targets, Don't, put the rifle down, and wait till the next set. When you made your last shot or two, and have to wait till they call targets again, have a sandwich.

 

[Killshot]

I blame flyers on Range Flies......

Damned things always run into my fifth round and mess things up. ;D

 

[Heavies]

I could be way off base, and I am some what a noob to this, but I'll take a stab at it anyway. (no problems if I get comments, suggestions, or just plain say I'm a dumb a ;D ;D)

When I shoot for groups for load development, fun, or what ever, I seem to notice, when the wind is 'dead calm', those fliers show up.

I've shot my best groups when I have had 5-10 MPH 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock winds. On those 'dead calm' days, or those days of very light wind from 12 or 6, I don't do so great.

I think it is because it is much easier to feel, and see, condition changes when they are more prevalent, than on those days when the air movement is so slight that it is almost imperceptible.

Groups with moderate to heavy full value wind.

Groups with light to calm tail wind.

Could it really be wind is your friend? I don't know... I'm not good enough. yet.

 

[artbosco]

The problem is that not all targets turn out this way. The attachments below are other typical targets with the 68 Berger and 69 Berger. Two good groups and then a distinctive flyer. I would like to say the flyer is me, and let the gun and ammo off the hook. But, I absolutely cannot predict them. When I call a pulled shot, I look at the target and the thing goes in the same hole. Then out of the blue when I think I have squeezed it off perfectly I get a flyer.

First, those are fine looking groups. And, if you can't shoot tight three shot groups, to start with, you aren't going to shoot tight five shoot groups, guaranteed.

For that occasional flyer, look to your front bag set up, chances are your front bag is too tight.

Had the same problem myself. I was putting bullets through the same hole, then a flyer out of nowhere. As soon as I fluffed up my front bag and didn't over tighten it [I did remove horizontal movement through tightening] my flyers went away.

"Sandbag Fill–A front sandbag that is too hard can induce vertical. Personally, I’ve have never had a rifle that will shoot consistently with a rock-hard front sandbag. It always causes vertical or other unexplained shots." ... Speedy Gonzalez

"other unexplained shots" = flyers

One last comment. Forget Velocity. You don't tune with velocity. Work on tuning with ... powder, seating depth, and neck tension [if you have that capability].

When you have your barrel tuned to the point that bullets are going through the same hole or very close to it, using two or three of the components above, then take note [for historical purposes only] of the ancillary or noncontributory measurements of velocity, ES, and SD. Good Luck.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Hi Ron, I am watching this thread with fascination...I am very interested to watch the journey.

to me to go from .1x to .5x at 100 is huge.....it seems to be consistently jumping to .5(?)

If I understand correctly you want the 1 flyer in the third group to be brought into line?

To me this looks like if you took the verticle out of that flyer in each group you would be on the money.

Is this pattern 100% repeatable...i.e. is it always the 3rd group with 1 flyer jumping to .5? (sorry if I have missed this info somewhere). If you shoot groups 4 and 5 what happens?

If the pattern is random do you mark the case and put it aside...i.e. does that case get re-used? If the pattern is consistent, I guess go to basics, bag setup, fouling etc.

One point with 5 shot groups you may want to consider is - it may tell you a little more of what is going on...i.e. if you get 2 in 1 out 2 in it may help with diagnosis...not saying do 5 shots as a rule.

Good luck - I reckon this thread is gonna be awesome...

 

[Tozguy]

Ron,
Did you do any scope clicking between any of the groups you have shown us so far?

 

[DCRYDER]

Dang Toz, you beat me to it!! Groups A and B either had a bad case of double grouping if the scope had not been clicked on. Because group C's flier is on plane with group A.

I would try a different scope, I've had a couple of scopes that the crosshairs liked to dance a jig!!! Good quality scopes too, that's why I checked them out last.

 

[6BRinNZ]

DCRYDER - for my ignorance is double grouping where the POI is slightly different each group?

Thanks

 

[RonAKA]

I'll try and answer the additional questions asked. The one thing this highlights is that I need to take better notes. I appreciate all the responses, and will answer as many as I can with the info that I do have.

Have I kept track of the brass that produced the flyers? No, and I need to do that. At this point I can't track a flyer to a brass measurement.

Flynch -- could be, but I generally see the target right through the shot. I did a check back to see if there was any pattern to group size. Of all the groups of 3 I have recorded, the smallest group was #2, 15 times, #1, 10 times, and #3, 7 times. So yes, fatigue or pressure could be taking a toll on group #3.

Front bag too tight or too hard. Here is the one I use. I recall there were two versions, and I have the heavier and (unfortunately) higher long range one. I use the bags like in the image with real sand and yes, they are hard. And yes again, I may be clamping the sides too tight. Unfortunately the fore stock is not flat (HS Precision for LRPV) but reasonably wide. Still not easy to keep it consistent. I do restore to the front stop on every shot (unless I forget!!). I probably will not replace the complete rest, but open to suggestions on changing the bag in it.

Neck tension is 0.001". I have one bushing smaller and could go to 0.002" tension. Plan to try that in Spring. Only used Varget and H322. Varget is better. Plan to try N135 in Spring. Each time I test for depth, 0.010" jam comes out best.

No it is not always a .1xx group or 0.5xx. I do have some that are mixed. I've attached all three loads that I shot that day in order. So top attachment first (it was preceded by 3 fouling shots), and on it left to right A, B, C. Then next target and the one after in the same pattern. They are the same two targets I posted earlier, plus the one preceding those which was the Bart's. This is one of the poorer Bart's I've shot, and I probably have to take some credit for it.

These three targets are all consecutive with no shots between them or any cleaning.

No notes on adjusting the scope, but I think I moved it left after shooting the Bart's. Don't recall any up down change.

I do see a bit of a two group pattern, even when you include the Bart's. The scope is a Sightron 6-24x42 AO SIIB Big Sky. Adjustments seem accurate and repeatable, but I have not done a box test.

 

[DCRYDER]

6BRinNZ, "double grouping" may not even be a "real" term. It's what I call it when I try shoot 1 little group and end up with 2 little groups 1/2" apart. Not vertical stringing, but 2 distinct groups. I think the #1 cause is loose crosshairs.