Most Probable Cause of these Flyers??

[artbosco]

Front bag too tight or too hard. Here is the one I use. I recall there were two versions, and I have the heavier and (unfortunately) higher long range one. I use the bags like in the image with real sand and yes, they are hard. And yes again, I may be clamping the sides too tight.

Unfortunately the fore stock is not flat (HS Precision for LRPV) but reasonably wide.

Still not easy to keep it consistent. I do restore to the front stop on every shot (unless I forget!!). A good practice to get into.

I probably will not replace the complete rest, but open to suggestions on changing the bag in it.

First go here: http://www.protektormodel.com/ Scroll down to the first line of front bags.

Depending on the width of your forend you might go with either the No. 1 Small Owl Ear Front Bag or the No. 2 Regular Owl Ear Front Bag. [Sounds like the No. 2 might be the right one.]

I highly recommend the use of Cordura vice leather. Speak with David, he can help you determine which size might be the most appropriate for your rifle.

 

[6BRinNZ]

6BRinNZ, "double grouping" may not even be a "real" term. It's what I call it when I try shoot 1 little group and end up with 2 little groups 1/2" apart. Not vertical stringing, but 2 distinct groups. I think the #1 cause is loose crosshairs.

Thanks - yes I can testify to this..exact same situation two little groups...thought the issue was me, sent the scope away anyways, it came back fully rebuilt....not a cheap scope either.

Ron - I have the exact same rest, I am definitely no expert in bag setup but with the reading I have done, I would suggest it is too hard to shoot consistently small groups. I do think cover off the basics and replace the bag. I don't believe the rest itself will take you from a .1xx to a .5xx but better people than myself would need to advise...

One last point, you may be struggling with two issues..

1./ group size growing as has been suggested by the forum boss (would this explain the slightly larger groups that have a flyer?). Possibly driver error, fatigue, bag setup etc can explain this?

2./ Flyers - these are the big jumps .1xx to .5xx. I feel this fits more into the mechanics of fouling or loading....by loading I include characteristics of an individual case.

Another question, how often has this brass been fired?....is the round count on each piece of brass the same?

So if it was me, the approach I would take is to;

1./ Improve the bag setup
2./ Not so sure.. LOL...I would defintely mark the cases and set them aside, then look for anything in my reloading process (do you use graphite on the neck). I take it there is no little flecks of brass on the flash hole.....do you do anything to the primer pockets?

Anyways - sorry I'm probably not offering anything you haven't already thought of...I sure am interested in the outcome though.

 

[rocketron]

Ron

i'm using the same front rest as you. here is what i found. i shoot a 6 spot target(3 across with 3 under those) and when setting up i line up on the upper center dot. shooting the same load at each target i find i get 3 different groups across but upper and lower groups are the same. this leads me to believe the rifle don't like right and left movement in the rest/bag set up. it would be better if the rest top would slide instead of twist for right and left adjustments.

try turning your target so the only adjustment is up and down.

Ron

 

[Tozguy]

Although my first suspicion re the fliers is the scope, I ditto the comments about the Caldwell Rock BR rest. I reworked the top on mine so that the windage adjustment pivots at the back and the adjustment knob is at the front. It still twists the rifle but now it tends to swing the front instead of the butt.
The tension spring on the windage mechanism also peters out quickly towards the full left end of its travel. I avoid using extreme left settings now.

 

[Tozguy]

Here is a picture of some 200 yd fliers from a Savage 12F in 6BR......

do you think your fliers are because its a Savage?

 

[BoydAllen]

I have a friend who has a different model rest, from the same manufacturer, that has the same windage top. When I examined the top, I found it not to be as solid as the one that I use, that is very similar to the latest Sinclair windage tops. The base that you have seems to be usable, BUT I would put a different top on it. As to trying to diagnose your groups, there are too many variables. Switch scopes and have someone else, who shoots really well (not saying that you don't) shoot it off of another rest...over flags...on a day when the wind is cooperating.

 

[jo191145]

Ron

LRPV stock? Never had one myself. Is it bedded?
I do know the LRVP comes with some texturing to the stock. At least in the forearm.
Thats not good for riding the bags.
I would suggest a 3" forend stabilizer as an upgrade. Some of the best cheap cash I ever spent in the factory rifle arena. Legal in the factory shoots I attend YMMV.

Also started with the Caldwell. Yes they're usable. I'd never buy another but they are usable.
Did'nt like that low profile 3" nylon lobe bag one bit. Never could get it flat.

Seeing as at the time I was'nt shooting any registered BR matches I built my own.
Went to one of them fabric/craft stores. Got a sheet of 1/4" flex foam and a sheet of self stick felt cloth. (Throw in a little glue for the foam)
To be honest I'm not 100% sure of exactly what I did anymore but..... Sides were double thick foam. Bottom was just one thickness foam but I added some 1/4" x1/4" strips so the forarm would always ride on the outer edges as opposed to rocking. Fairly certain the strips were installed underneath the main layer.Wrapped the entire thing with sticky felt and installed. Actually looked darn nice. Used it for two years, no wear until IBS came to town.
Wow!!!! I've never had a better front bag than that. Better rest yes. Shame its not legal in BR. You did'nt mention what you have for a rear bag. Caldwell is not very good in the back either. Packed stiff they rock and roll. Packed loose they're floppy.JMO

 

[mytwo60]

I had similar problems at 300yds. I only shoot 10 shot groups. For experimental purpose, I went and marked the 2 "flyer" brass at the base with a marker. I then reloaded all the brass and shot the same 10 shots.

Again, I had 2 flyers. While shooting, I did not know which 2 were the marked brass. Wanna guess which two brass were the flyers?

Yup the same two.

 

[Klong]

A couple of thing to try:

a> Don't let the barrel cool. May sound odd, but we are looking for the cause here and not necessarily trying to shoot a small group. See what happens.

b> Shoot 10 shot group without letting the barrel cool. If a or b result in opening up the groups then I would think it is bedding or the torque on the receiver. Again here we are not doing this to try to tighten groups, we are checking out the rifle.

c> Powder your bags.

d> Be sure you push the rifle to the stop everytime.

e> Be sure your front bag is level and square with the target.

f> Be sure you are using the same cheek presure and shoulder support at the time of firing. This or stock screws are my first choice of causes. Try a group with the rifle allowed to free recoil (no shoulder or cheek support).

g> change primers.

h> Don't shoot during in a mirage boil. If these groups are shot in order and it is always the 3rd group that does this, I don't think it is a mirage issue.

 

[HuskerP7M8]

Ron,

It sometimes helps to form a composite group of all the individual shots in a testing session because this often allows you to more easily identify the “true” accuracy of a firearm and determine if perceived flyers are real or just part of the normal pattern all firearms exhibit with a large number of shots.

The first image below shows the 9 3-shot groups you fired as if all 27 shots were fired on one target. The only alteration I made in plotting these 27 shots, was to move the first 9 shots 0.25” to the left because you stated there might have been a windage adjustment to your scope after they were fired. The mathematical center of the first 9 was approximately 0.25” to the right of the mathematical center of the last 18, so I’m guessing that was indeed the case.

The second image shows the exact same group, but I shrunk the P’sOI so you can easily distinguish each individual shot. The 9 points colored red are the altered shots from your first target.

Landy

 

[necchi]

that's kinda neat Husker,
What program is that?

 

[RonAKA]

Ron, It sometimes helps to form a composite group of all the individual shots in a testing session because this often allows you to more easily identify the “true” accuracy of a firearm and determine if perceived flyers are real or just part of the normal pattern all firearms exhibit with a large number of shots.

The first image below shows the 9 3-shot groups you fired as if all 27 shots were fired on one target. The only alteration I made in plotting these 27 shots, was to move the first 9 shots 0.25” to the left because you stated there might have been a windage adjustment to your scope after they were fired. The mathematical center of the first 9 was approximately 0.25” to the right of the mathematical center of the last 18, so I’m guessing that was indeed the case.

The second image shows the exact same group, but I shrunk the P’sOI so you can easily distinguish each individual shot. The 9 points colored red are the altered shots from your first target. Landy

Landy first thanks for the analysis of the target. And hello again. I think it has been over two years since we were discussing the merits of the TTEST in analyzing two shot groups of .22LR ammo. As you can see I've moved from good sound statistical analysis to using less shots and the seat of my pants instead of the TTEST!

I think I get the point you are trying to make. The outliers are contained within a reasonable pattern, so potentially they are not flyers, but just expected edges within a normal distribution. That said, your second graph, with a couple of red exceptions does seem to show a high group and a low group, or potential double grouping as was suggested earlier in the thread.

I had noticed that as well even without the excellent graphical display. One thing I am doing that I probably did not explain fully is sort bullets by body diameter, and also cases by weight. On the loading bench I number them and pre-sort them into the groups I will shoot. I don't sort to the extent where all bullets and cases are the same for a complete three group target, but they are all the same for one group. So if this sorting does have any value, it would tend to minimize variation within a group, but not from group to group. I've also got to check my records again, but at some of these targets were shot with virgin brass, while some may have been shot with 4X fired brass. Again, not within one group, but possibly from group to group.

In any case, thanks again for the analysis. Certainly gives me something to think about.

 

[LHSmith]

I question the quality of the rest top, and those bags offer no consistant shape....too flimsy. Do you pound the base into the bench (if wood). Are you sure ALL adjustment screws are tight.....Make sure there is plenty of daylight under the rest feet.
A flat fore-end adapter would help a lot. Do you spray the cordura to keep it slick? Place a soft rubber bumper on the fore-end stop.
If your rifle has a pistol grip....make sure it does not hit the rear bag upon recoil.
I also am in agreement about shooting when the tails don't move.....especially late in day or early am, or subtle shade from clouds/sun mix.
45 seconds between shots is an eternity in BR unless you are exceptional at allowing for conditions.
I believe you will learn more with 5 shot groups with that rifle.

 

[LHSmith]

Some other thoughts:
At the beginning of every match (or practice session, I always verify that the parallax is adjusted out of the scope.
How do you adjust for elevation with this model rest? I once had a speed screw that had poor threads that caused vertical.
Some barrels need to be warmed-up to produce tight groups...in BR it is not unusual to "throw one or two away" before even going to the sighter....it's not only done for fouling shots.
If you do have a stippled or checkered fore-end, place a used dryer sheet between stock and bag.
If you decide to replace the front bag, the proper sand-fill is most important.

 

[HuskerP7M8]

that's kinda neat Husker,
What program is that?

necchi,

The two pics are only screenshots of an x,y scattershot chart generated by Excel after I input the x,y coordinates for a Cartesian Plane.
What I actually do with an analysis would require an explanation only a few, if any, would understand and I’d be typing for a month to describe it fully. LOL
If you’re truly curious, I could post a couple of links that’ll at least scratch the surface of the subject matter.

Landy

 

[HuskerP7M8]

Ron, It sometimes helps to form a composite group of all the individual shots in a testing session because this often allows you to more easily identify the “true” accuracy of a firearm and determine if perceived flyers are real or just part of the normal pattern all firearms exhibit with a large number of shots.

The first image below shows the 9 3-shot groups you fired as if all 27 shots were fired on one target. The only alteration I made in plotting these 27 shots, was to move the first 9 shots 0.25” to the left because you stated there might have been a windage adjustment to your scope after they were fired. The mathematical center of the first 9 was approximately 0.25” to the right of the mathematical center of the last 18, so I’m guessing that was indeed the case.

The second image shows the exact same group, but I shrunk the P’sOI so you can easily distinguish each individual shot. The 9 points colored red are the altered shots from your first target. Landy

Landy first thanks for the analysis of the target. And hello again. I think it has been over two years since we were discussing the merits of the TTEST in analyzing two shot groups of .22LR ammo. As you can see I've moved from good sound statistical analysis to using less shots and the seat of my pants instead of the TTEST!

I think I get the point you are trying to make. The outliers are contained within a reasonable pattern, so potentially they are not flyers, but just expected edges within a normal distribution. That said, your second graph, with a couple of red exceptions does seem to show a high group and a low group, or potential double grouping as was suggested earlier in the thread.

I had noticed that as well even without the excellent graphical display. One thing I am doing that I probably did not explain fully is sort bullets by body diameter, and also cases by weight. On the loading bench I number them and pre-sort them into the groups I will shoot. I don't sort to the extent where all bullets and cases are the same for a complete three group target, but they are all the same for one group. So if this sorting does have any value, it would tend to minimize variation within a group, but not from group to group. I've also got to check my records again, but at some of these targets were shot with virgin brass, while some may have been shot with 4X fired brass. Again, not within one group, but possibly from group to group.

In any case, thanks again for the analysis. Certainly gives me something to think about.

Hey Ron,

It has been awhile, but I’m not surprised you got the point I was trying to make and you were correct to note that it’s only a possibility and not a fact that there may not actually be “any” flyers. I could have done a full blown analysis with CEP (Circular Error Probability) or my GAP software but after analyzing thousands of groups and firing hundreds of thousands of rounds in my tunnel….the statistical information wouldn’t explain why there appears to be a split group syndrome and an elliptical pattern in the vertical axis. It does, however, make it easily visible and puts exact numbers to it. Something you might consider doing is another ladder test at 100 meters instead of 300 meters, to verify your load isn’t distance specific.

It’s difficult, if not impossible, to diagnose problems remotely without knowing the exact methodology and the conditions the test was conducted under. I’ve tried to do so in the past and I’ve run out of the asbestos suits needed to protect me from the flames. LOL

Good Luck….I’m always around but just don’t post much anymore.

Landy

 

[RonAKA]

Looks like I have a long list of potential causes to work on... I think both of these have been at least indirectly suggested, but here are a couple of issues which I had identified as the possible cause of the flyers.

1. Low and potentially Inconsistent Seating Tension - Due to the long throat in this Savage for a 12 twist, I do not get much seating depth with the 68 grain or so bullet weights. I also use a bushing die and control my tension at 0.001", which I believe is on the low end. I did a standard deviation calculation on the group size for each bullet. The thought was that inconsistent tension would show up as higher standard deviation. The 80 grain bullets which have over 0.200" seating depth showed the lowest standard deviation, but nearly the largest group size. That fits as those bullets tend to shoot ragged groups and fewer flyers. The Berger 69 high BC has the least seating depth at 0.070". It has the highest group size and second highest standard deviation. That kind of fits too, as it tends to shoot one hole groups with flyers. So my thinking on this was to try the next smaller bushing size and go to 0.002" tension to see if that does anything for the flyers.

2. Neck too Tight - I measured 10 each of some 5X fired cases and some 1X fired cases, for neck OD near but not at the shoulder and near but not right at the mouth. The 5X cases were extremely consistent in size. The 1X were very close for average but quite inconsistent. I used the 5X numbers, added 0.001" and compared them to the CIP standard (minimum) for chambers, and also the PTG no turn reamer print for the old cardboard box Lapua (which I have). Results:

Data Source - Shoulder - Mouth - Taper
PTG NT Reamer (old) - .2720 - .2708 - 0.0012
CIP Minimum - 0.2720 - 0.2709 - 0.0012
Savage Estimated - 0.2722 - 0.2702 - 0.0020

The PTG reamer seems to be the same as CIP with differences probably only due to metric conversion and round off. This Savage chamber is OK at the shoulder end, but has a higher taper, and is 0.0007" under the CIP minimum at the mouth end. Maximum CIP spec for loaded brass is 0.2705" at the mouth end and would result in an interference fit of 0.0003". Combine this with the Lapua explanation of the new "blue box" dimensions, which was that some brass was exceeding the CIP maximum, and I wonder if I have an issue that would cause flyers. I unfortunately don't have any loaded brass so I can't measure it now. I recall numbers up to 0.2795 in the few I measured and within CIP, but I wonder if there were some which were larger... Neck turning would be the obvious fix, but I look forward to that like a root canal without freezing... I also wonder how you turn with a 0.002" taper in the neck??

Thoughts on these two possibilities or any others?

 

[artbosco]

Looks like I have a long list of potential causes to work on...

First, look at the simplest one to fix.

Here's what I'd review:

http://benchrest.netfirms.com/Filling%20Sandbags.htm

before all other possibilities, because it's the easiest to evaluate. And, because Speedy [Benchrest Hall of Fame Inductee] knows what he's talking about.

 

[RonAKA]

Looks like I have a long list of potential causes to work on...

First, look at the simplest one to fix.
Here's what I'd review:
http://benchrest.netfirms.com/Filling%20Sandbags.htm
before all other possibilities, because it's the easiest to evaluate. And, because Speedy [Benchrest Hall of Fame Inductee] knows what he's talking about.

For sure I am going to change the hard 3" nylon lobe style bag. The sand in it is thin and hard. I have a leather Protektor style bag from another rest, but I suspect it is a bit too narrow. Plans were to make a Protektor style bag from upholstery weight Microfiber, somewhat similar to SEB ones below:

Not sure what to use in them. I have silica sand, and also some lighter stuff that came in a Caldwell bag. Not sure what it is, but lighter than sand. Currently I use packing tape on the bottom and side of my forestock, with a bit of silicone on it to make it slide. The rear bag is a suede rabbit ear style fairly softly filled with silicon sand. I use a dryer sheet in it and packing tape on the stock again.

 

[MarkS]

Ron,

I have the same gun as you. I am seeing the same thing, But with three different barrels, 6BR, 223 and 20 TAC on the same gun. I will see flier from nowhere. For me it's the gun / stock. I just can't shot it, like I can shoot my 600 yds benchrest guns. Looks for gun handling and set up.

Mark Schronce