Most Probable Cause of these Flyers??

[BoydAllen]

I think that the records that still stand that were shot with a conventional rest, using the rear leg screw for fine elevation adjustment, as well as the number of successful shooters who do not use Farley rests would tend to disprove the idea that there is a significant front bag problem with conventional rests. I think that the main advantage of the Farley is that it allows fro faster aiming when shooting free recoil, a style that is by no means universal among top shooters. Don't get me wrong; I think that Farleys are an innovative, successful, well built rest, it is just that they are not a requirement for successful shooting.

I go back to my original point. The windage top is probably not as solid as it could be, and the bag is probably too hard. A friend, who is a top level rimfire competitor once set up several different rest setups on adjoining benches. The result of shooting off of each of them, with the same, top quality, rifle and ammunition, was that he was able to observe significant differences in performance. None of the rest/bag setups were cheap, or poorly made.

 

[Tozguy]

Ron, I tried the cordura bag (BAG28) from Sinclair and find it much better than the three panel pancake bag that came with the Caldwell when using the rear foot screw for fine adjustment. Can't say how many thou it shaved off my groups but it is narrower and rounder. Logically a 3'' wide forend will pivot more evenly on it.
In addition to the excellent comments provided in the above posts there is an interesting article at: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/11/06/

 

[RonAKA]

It is common practice to adjust elevation with some sort of device in the rear leg to provide fine adjustment in these type of rests...it is usually much faster than turning the mariner wheel and usually a much finer adjustment.

Have not tried that method. My usual (self taught) technique is to use the wheel to bring point of aim slightly low, then 80% tighten the lock, and last use the wheel to nudge that last bit of elevation. The method only works in the up direction of course so you have to be careful with that last adjustment tweak, or start over.

Tozguy, thanks for the article link. I'm going to spend more time this season on getting the bag adjustment right. Need to make a decision on the front bag width. The LRPV is 2 1/4" wide, while I use a 3" block on my rimfire. Guess I will have to make a 3" block for the LRPV as well. Changing the rest bag is a real pain in the butt on this Caldwell rest, especially if you use the screws to hold the bag down.

 

[BoydAllen]

RonAKA,
The usual is to use the mariner wheel to set up for a particular target, and use the rear leg adjustment to make fine adjustments, and go from record to sighter targets in group shooting.

Just out of curiosity, if you thought that you had a 20 second window to get five shots off, before the condition went away, could you do it? The reason that I ask, is that in short range Benchrest, running is an important technique to master. Obviously there are many times when it can not be done, but it is an important technique to master.

 

[RonAKA]

Just out of curiosity, if you thought that you had a 20 second window to get five shots off, before the condition went away, could you do it? The reason that I ask, is that in short range Benchrest, running is an important technique to master. Obviously there are many times when it can not be done, but it is an important technique to master.

Not a chance. I just shoot for fun, and there is no way I could get shots off that fast. I need time to put black marks on the brass that produces flyers!!

 

[BoydAllen]

Thanks for your candor.

If you are trying to shoot groups, I suggest that you leave the record keeping and concentrate on the task at hand. After firing a shot, and a half second of follow trough, I suggest that you need to get reloaded and re-aimed as fast as humanly possible..if not faster. The bullet hole will still be there for you to notice as you finalize your aim for the next shot. Never, repeat never, study a shot, if the conditions are holding. After you have the cross hairs positioned, a glance at the flags will tell you if you should shoot or wait, and if they are holding, you need to touch the trigger and do it all over again....and again and... If you want to sort suspect brass, have a box to toss it in. Lay the loaded rounds on a towel on the bench, beside your loading port. Drop your empties on the same towel. Practice loading without taking your eyes off of the flags. Believe it or not, all of this will tighten your groups. One time ,when I was at a match, I asked Lester Bruno and Gary Ocock if they thought that there was an advantage to taking extra time to aim more precisely. They both agreed that that was not was not a good idea, because there is more to be lost by risking loosing the condition, than would be gained from taking more time aiming.

Once, I let a friend shoot one of my bench rifles, that I had just tuned to the days conditions. To make things a little easier, I called the flags for him, and as luck would have it they held for a short period. He is a better than average trigger puller, and listened when I told him how that rifle likes to to be held. As I saw the wind holding, I continued to urge him not to stop, and to keep shooting as fast as he could, without studying the group. To his credit, he took my rather aggressive coaching in stride, and the result was a group in the high ones. After he was done, I apologized for pushing so hard, and complimented his being able to take the pressure. It only took once, after that he understood what was needed, and in subsequent sessions with the same rifle, did himself and the rifle proud. Some time later, we found him a good deal on an almost unused 6PPC that has not disappointed. If I had let him shoot that group in a more usual manner, he would have lost the condition, and the group would have undoubtedly had fliers.

 

[Heavies]

I think looking, studying, the bullet holes while you are shooting group is a kin to motorcycle riding.
When you learn to ride a bike you are taught to look where you want to go the bike will follow. If you are looking down at the ground the bike tends to follow!
Same here. I am thinking if you are looking at the previous hole you unconsciously steer there, thus throwing the shot off.
Some of my best groups are on paper that hides the hole until a closer inspection is done.
I don't shoot bench rest, but I am trying to train my self to call the shot, analyze where I want to aim next for the X, then shoot while ignoring the other holes.

 

[BoydAllen]

I am not saying that you shouldn't look at your bullet holes, just that you will see them as you are aiming the next shot, and not to waste any time by looking before you reload or re-aim. For most shooters holding off for shots, without taking a sighter shot is a recipe for disaster. Other types of shooting may have different truths.

 

[commando57]

I may have missed it but if are you magazine feeding, could it be the flyer is a banged up bullet tip?

 

[RonAKA]

I may have missed it but if are you magazine feeding, could it be the flyer is a banged up bullet tip?

Single shot, no magazine.

 

[queen_stick]

Once, I let a friend shoot one of my bench rifles, that I had just tuned to the days conditions. To make things a little easier, I called the flags for him, and as luck would have it they held for a short period. He is a better than average trigger puller, and listened when I told him how that rifle likes to to be held. As I saw the wind holding, I continued to urge him not to stop, and to keep shooting as fast as he could, without studying the group. To his credit, he took my rather aggressive coaching in stride, and the result was a group in the high ones. After he was done, I apologized for pushing so hard, and complimented his being able to take the pressure. It only took once, after that he understood what was needed, and in subsequent sessions with the same rifle, did himself and the rifle proud...

Boyd, Can you come over sometime, stand behind my bench, and scream at me for all the stuff I'm doing wrong? Maybe that's what I need to improve my game.

This thread is a good read... I have the same problem with flyers, and this thread gave me some good direction. Thanks to all that responded!

 

[BoydAllen]

Queen-Stick,
I have been toying with setting up my digital still camera on a tripod so that it has a side view on me, while shooting at the bench. It has a video function. Why don't you give this a try, and then you can look at what you are doing... and yell at yourself BTW, try shooting off of very soft bags, with a secure hold on the rifle, and tell us what happens to the fliers.
Boyd

 

[queen_stick]

The video camera is a great idea! I can probably barrow one from a friend. (My still camera will only shoot video for 30 seconds, and the quality is junk)

I already use a firm hold... my setup produces disgusting results in free recoil. It's interesting you said to try a soft bag. Last fall I had changed my front bag, and my groups doubled in size. I didn't have time to play with it, but I was shocked to see a front bag make that much of a difference. My rig is at the smith right now. As soon as I get it back, that's one of the first things I'm going to play with.

Walt

 

[BoydAllen]

When you do, post your results.

 

[queen_stick]

will do.

 

[LHSmith]

I think that the records that still stand that were shot with a conventional rest, using the rear leg screw for fine elevation adjustment, as well as the number of successful shooters who do not use Farley rests would tend to disprove the idea that there is a significant front bag problem with conventional rests. I think that the main advantage of the Farley is that it allows fro faster aiming when shooting free recoil, a style that is by no means universal among top shooters. Don't get me wrong; I think that Farleys are an innovative, successful, well built rest, it is just that they are not a requirement for successful shooting.

Boyd, while I do agree that coaxial rests' main advantage is faster target acquisition and the overwhelming number of records were shot without them, I believe that in the Score game of point blank BR (100 -300 yds) recent history has shown that the majority of nationally ranked competitors have been using coaxial rests. This is from my observation at score matches here in PA and perusing through the IBS photos of many recent score matches and observing what most, including the Score SOY (shooter of the year) points leaders, are using as a rest set-up. Remember in Score shooting the amount of distance one must traverse the target is nearly twice that of Group shooting. In addition one must not only traverse vertically but horizontally as well...not so with Group. Also, every record shot requires a rest movement in Score, in Group once you leave the sighter you have very little rest movement provided your gun tracks well and conditions are holding.
Now, I can't speak as to what shooting technique those with Coaxial rests use just from viewing photos , but from my observations at the matches it is predominately free-recoil (with little subtle variations similar to what's already been described (mostly with varying thumb pressure).
Shooting rests peak my interest, I've used a bunch of them. After all, along with a rock solid bench a proven rest system provides the foundation on which to record accuracy baselines. Without a solid foundation any attempt to interpret true accuracy is flawed.....and components and time are too precious to waste.
I plan to do some experimenting with the front bag / fore-end relationship this spring to see if bag "tilting" is a "real" problem and also soft vs. hard front bag.

RonAKA- sorry to hi-jack, as my responses tend to address the competitive aspects of shooting.....particularly Point Blank Score.

 

[BoydAllen]

You have me at a complete disadvantage when it comes to score shooting experience. Around here, it is all group. I remember when I saw my first Farley. Walt Berger was using it at a match at Visalia, and he gave me the chance to aim his rifle (with bolt properly removed) with it. I was (and am) impressed, and called Dick Wright, and PS and told them that someone needed to do a write up, describing it, if I remember correctly, as the best thing since sliced bread. Truthfully, the only reason that I have not tried one is the price, and the fact that in group shooting, I see a lot of excellent work being done with rests that are the functional equivalent of my old Hart, with a Hoehn windage top. Rest assured, if my R&D budget was larger, I would have bought one long ago.

 

[RonAKA]

Ron
I go halfway through this post and skipped to the last page.If it hasn't been posted yet the cause of your unexplained fliers is your seating depth.You can e-mail me at lynn_dragoman@att.net and I'll tell you how to correct the problem.
Lynn

Lynn thanks for the offer, and I will send you an e-mail. Here are the seating depths (into the neck) for the "to the lands" position. Last is the standard deviation of the group sizes. I think that is a rough indicator of the flyers with higher SD indicating more prevalent flyers. Subjectively the 68's and 69's produce the small one hole groups but with a flyer about every 3 groups. The 80's produce larger ragged hole groups and fewer flyers.

Bullet - Seating Depth - Group SD
Berger 69 - 0.080" - 0.160"
Bart's Ultra 68 - 0.101" - 0.141
Berger 68 - 0.159" - 0.179
Berger 80 - 0.226" - 0.129

My actual seating depth is 0.010" less than these numbers, as I have found best average accuracy with a 0.010" jam.

 

[allenn]

I agree with Lynn, seating depth is your problem. You need more or less grip on the bullet.
Seating depth and neck tension go hand in hand, they both provide more or less of a grip on the bullet. The farther you seat the bullet into the case neck the more grip it will have on the bullet. If all bullets are seated .010 jam the 80's are being gripped more by the neck than the 60's because they are longer. My guess would be this is why the 80's have fewer flyers.
Increase seating depth or use a smaller bushing to increase neck grip on bullet. Berger Bullet web page has a must read in the VLD section about seating depth.


I have found 1,000 load combinations that do not shoot well.

 

[Heavies]

I think Lynn is referring to the ojive's relation to the lands.
Variable distance would mean variable pressures?