Money back from Savage??

[Siiri]

Hello,
Has anyone gotten their money back from Savage?
The guy I got the gun from said Savage wouldn't give their money back; all I could get is a new gun. Which I don't want because this is my 2nd gun that is having the exact same problem.

Thanks!
Siiri

 

[Terry]

Never had a Savage that I didn't like. What's up?

 

[HillbillySniper]

Git the new gun from savage and sell it or trade it at a local gun shop for something else. I'm sure Savage will take care of your problem.

Hillbilly

 

[Siiri]

Never had a Savage that I didn't like. What's up?

My 17HMR (Savage BSEV) is splitting the cases.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Siiri: Looks like your only option (without taking a loss by trading it for something else at a gunshop)
would be to ship it back to Savage so they can make it right "again". Ship "it" and the brass so they know what's going on. Get on the phone and see if you can get them to pay the shipping.
Don't count on getting a refund from Savage.
Kind of a bummer to be without it for a while but that looks like the only thing to do.
And trading it off as it is now wouldn't be cool. It would end up being someone else's problem? If you were to buy it, you wouldn't be too happy.
Send it back to Savage. JMHO, Mike.

 

[queen_stick]

Siiri,

Is this still ongoing from our discussion in the rimfire section a while back?

I found some interesting info, and posted it in that thread (see link below). See the last couple of posts on the last page, if you haven't already.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3751553.msg35902945.html#msg35902945

 

[Terry]

Tis answers a lot of questions.

Great Link!

 

[K0na_stinky]

Siiri,

Is this still ongoing from our discussion in the rimfire section a while back?

I found some interesting info, and posted it in that thread (see link below). See the last couple of posts on the last page, if you haven't already.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3751553.msg35902945.html#msg35902945

There are lots of people saying that its the cases them self. Not being annealed properly. Or hot ammo. I have shot all kinds of 17HMR bullets in my savage 17 and I havent had a problem. About 1000 shots now over the last 7 months. My chamber is .002" smaller then siiris from what we can tell by the fired cases. Its 100% BS and savage/ammo manufacture should fix the problem. Just because its a rim fire doesn't mean that it can slide.

 

[RonAKA]

Sirri, I'm sure this must be frustrating. I have a friend that had a Remington 597 that was very poor. Could not pattern much less than 3" at 50 yards. He went round the block with them, and in the end the dealer took it back in exchange credit on another gun.

I'm not 100% sure it is the gun now though. I recall you posted some dimensions showing fired cases were within 0.001" of your boyfriend's gun. Is that correct? If so, I'm not sure that is enough to make them split. Necks in centerfires stretch 0.015" all the time and can take that for 4-5 reloads before they split.

Can you post a picture of the most recent split cases? I'm curious as to what the cracks look like. There is something called seasonal cracking or more commonly stress corrosion cracking. If brass is made without relieving the stress (annealing), and then it is exposed to a corrosive environment (like ammonia), it can crack all on its own. The crack appearance is brittle. See this photo and link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_cracking

The effect was discovered when the British army stored ammo in a horse barn in India.

I wonder if the ammo you are buying has possibly been manufactured poorly and left with high residual stress, and then has been exposed to some kind of contamination. It would be interesting to try some ammo that comes from a totally different supplier/store and of a different brand.

Do you or your boyfriend belong to Canadian Gunnutz? If so, there is a contributor there by the sign-in of BattleRife who is very knowledgeable on the brass cracking issue. We do not agree 100%, but close. You may want to PM him with photos and ask for his opinion as to whether it could be SCC (stress corrosion cracking).

 

[K0na_stinky]

Here are some of Siiris splits.

On the right one it has a very small split and a very small hole at on the sholder.

 

[RonAKA]

My chamber is .002" smaller then siiris from what we can tell by the fired cases.

In the scheme of things while that may seem like a large difference, it is not out of the ballpark. Have a look at the chamber dimensions of the various .22LR chambers. The body dimension "B" at the neck end varies from a minimum of .2240 in a full match chamber, to 0.227 in a Lakefield, for a 0.003" difference. Savage now owns Lakefield and the old Lakefield factory is where the current Savage rimfires are made.

My thoughts are that the brass should be able to take that much stretching without cracking.

 

[K0na_stinky]

It seems that 0.002" makes the difference between never having a split and spliting 25% of the cases.

 

[queen_stick]

Siiri,

Is this still ongoing from our discussion in the rimfire section a while back?

I found some interesting info, and posted it in that thread (see link below). See the last couple of posts on the last page, if you haven't already.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3751553.msg35902945.html#msg35902945

There are lots of people saying that its the cases them self. Not being annealed properly. Or hot ammo. I have shot all kinds of 17HMR bullets in my savage 17 and I havent had a problem. About 1000 shots now over the last 7 months. My chamber is .002" smaller then siiris from what we can tell by the fired cases. Its 100% BS and savage/ammo manufacture should fix the problem. Just because its a rim fire doesn't mean that it can slide.

K0na,

If your chamber is .002" smaller than siiri's, then my chamber has a neck diameter .004" bigger than yours. As a side note, these measurements are based on the assumption that the brass is springing back the same amount for the both of us... maybe they're not?

What's the spec in this cartridge? (SAMMI, or the like)

I bet there are a lot of people out there with this problem, but they haven't realized it. I know people with 17hmr's that don't shoot at a range; they simply hunt with them. It's likely they've never examined their fired cases.

I agree... this is some BS.
Now I have Siiri's thread off topic... sorry ... I'll stop now.

 

[K0na_stinky]

All my fired cases seem to be giving me the same measurements.

Neck: 0.191"
Case just below the shoulder: 0.243
Case just agove the rim: 0.246

And I checked the 17HMR bullets I had. 20gr hornadys, 17gr hornadys and 17 gr federals.

They all measured the same unfired.

Neck: 0.189
Case just below the shoulder: 0.238
Case just above the rim: 0.239

 

[queen_stick]

All my fired cases seem to be giving me the same measurements.

Neck: 0.191"
Case just below the shoulder: 0.243
Case just agove the rim: 0.246

And I checked the 17HMR bullets I had. 20gr hornadys, 17gr hornadys and 17 gr federals.

They all measured the same unfired.

Neck: 0.189
Case just below the shoulder: 0.238
Case just above the rim: 0.239

For Comparison, here's mine:

the case I have with a split...
.192 neck
.241 body, just below the shoulder
.244 base, right above the rim

Other fired cases without split neck... measure the same as the one with the split.

unfired cases (bullets still in, of course)
.190 neck
.238 body, just below the shoulder
.238 base, right above the rim

====

Looking at the old thread, Siiri posted her numbers, which states the neck is ".19" ... maybe it was a typo (missed the last digit).

 

[RonAKA]

Not sure if you have seen this post on another forum. The poster wrote to Hornady and complained about the case splitting. Here is the answer they got:

"The 17 HMR cases may crack because of the annealing process when they are made. The annealing process is what makes the material brittle or flexible depending on the length of time and degree of the process. This is a precise procedure with any other case that can be reloaded, as we want the case to be hard enough to do the job but soft enough to stand up to several reloads. The 17 HMR case is dispensable and can not be reloaded, therefore the annealing procedure isn't quite as strict as with other cases. When the case cracks, it's because the neck was annealed a little harder than it needed to be, making it more brittle. This does not affect the accuracy or performance of the ammunition. Normally, the fired case will eject the same as any other, and unless they are picked up later, the shooter may never even know they had a case with a split neck. We would prefer that none of the cases split, (and the majority of them don't), but it seems redundant to spend the time and money on perfecting the case when it isn't practical or necessary. Our lab has evaluated cases with cracked necks, and the powder is fine, the case necks are just more brittle.
I hope that answers your questions. Please feel free to contact one of our techs who are much more familiar with our bullets, cases and ammunition than I am. Most of our technical personnel are at the Grand in Ohio this week, but will be back next week. They can be contacted by email at webmaster@hornady.com or by phone at 1-800-338-3220."

I would translate that PR smooth talk to say "We don't bother annealing a one time use case, to save money. Don't worry about it." Likely the reason it shows up in the 17 HMR and not the .22LR is that the HMR case is formed into a bottle neck shape, likely without any post annealing. Therefore it is left brittle and in a state very susceptible to stress corrosion cracking. Perhaps there are other manufacturers that anneal post forming.

See Post #8 at this link.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=13782

 

[K0na_stinky]

Not sure if you have seen this post on another forum. The poster wrote to Hornady and complained about the case splitting. Here is the answer they got:

"The 17 HMR cases may crack because of the annealing process when they are made. The annealing process is what makes the material brittle or flexible depending on the length of time and degree of the process. This is a precise procedure with any other case that can be reloaded, as we want the case to be hard enough to do the job but soft enough to stand up to several reloads. The 17 HMR case is dispensable and can not be reloaded, therefore the annealing procedure isn't quite as strict as with other cases. When the case cracks, it's because the neck was annealed a little harder than it needed to be, making it more brittle. This does not affect the accuracy or performance of the ammunition. Normally, the fired case will eject the same as any other, and unless they are picked up later, the shooter may never even know they had a case with a split neck. We would prefer that none of the cases split, (and the majority of them don't), but it seems redundant to spend the time and money on perfecting the case when it isn't practical or necessary. Our lab has evaluated cases with cracked necks, and the powder is fine, the case necks are just more brittle.
I hope that answers your questions. Please feel free to contact one of our techs who are much more familiar with our bullets, cases and ammunition than I am. Most of our technical personnel are at the Grand in Ohio this week, but will be back next week. They can be contacted by email at webmaster@hornady.com or by phone at 1-800-338-3220."

I would translate that PR smooth talk to say "We don't bother annealing a one time use case, to save money. Don't worry about it." Likely the reason it shows up in the 17 HMR and not the .22LR is that the HMR case is formed into a bottle neck shape, likely without any post annealing. Therefore it is left brittle and in a state very susceptible to stress corrosion cracking. Perhaps there are other manufacturers that anneal post forming.

See Post #8 at this link.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=13782

What I don’t understand is that my cases aren’t splitting. I’ve shot mine about 1000 times and I haven’t had one split. When people are having them crack often. Maybe the standards should be tightened up?

 

[Siiri]

This is just craziness! All they are doing is sweeping it under the rug and not owning up to a problem and trying to fix it. I don't know if it's a problem with savage or the ammo companies, but there is defiantly a problem and they should be working together and making it as safe as possible for their consumers that use their products.

I will be phoning Savage tomorrow and getting my 2 cents in on this problem! Defiantly not happy with this being my second gun that is having the exact same problem.
I will let you all know how it goes tomorrow!

Thanks!
Siiri

 

[RonAKA]

Another explanation I saw was that CCI makes all the ammo. Hornady and others just put their name on it. CCI's story is that they prime the cases before they form the shoulder on the case, so they can't heat the case again to anneal it after forming. If true that makes some sense.

Why is one gun splitting and not the other? Must be an edge of the cliff thing. One is stretching the brass that bit extra to make it crack. Do you feel it is affecting accuracy?

 

[Siiri]

Another explanation I saw was that CCI makes all the ammo. Hornady and others just put their name on it. CCI's story is that they prime the cases before they form the shoulder on the case, so they can't heat the case again to anneal it after forming. If true that makes some sense.

Why is one gun splitting and not the other? Must be an edge of the cliff thing. One is stretching the brass that bit extra to make it crack. Do you feel it is affecting accuracy?

No, I feel it is affecting my safety. Everyone says not to worry about it, but what is going to happen down the road 10, 20, 50 years from now if I keep using it??? You would think there would be some ware and tear from this since it shouldn't be happening anyways.