Measure vs Weigh Powders, Culver or Scale perferred methods.

[Phil]

I use a chargemaster and a Harrell's, throw light, and trickle up on an A&D 120i

 

[BartsBullets]

Good input here^^^


LH, would you say what you see in sr.... Guys weighing would chase the tune MORE than guys measuring? My peabrain says yes.

As a long range guy, I weigh of course. But I preload, but not everyone does. It seems like I don't chase my tune as much as a person would expect.

Tom

Tom,

It doesn't matter if you're weighting or throwing your loads in short range. The tune for a gun is the tune. With a 6PPC it usually changes through the day. Like you said in another post, "The paper don't lie!" When I adjust a load it's based on what my groups looked like.

LH is quite correct, the weight of your powder can change durning the day. An electronic powder measure will automatically correct for this problem. If you punch in 29.2 it's going to pour 29.2. If you use a powder throw it is best to check your weight before each reloading because it can change between matches. Remember that for a SR group match we shoot 10 individual targets per day and it takes all day to shoot the match.

This may hurt some people's heads but here it goes....Top shooters pay attention throughout the day to the volume of a specific charge weight. In other words lets say in the morning 29.8 of 133 comes to the middle of my case neck. If the same 29.8 only comes to the bottom of the neck at lunch, I may need to consider changing my load.

My experience so far with shooting mid and long range is the guns aren't nearly as temperamental as far as tune. So Preloading isn't a problem!

 

[BartsBullets]

That's what I was getting at, thanks Bart.

I have noticed over the years, when I set up for a new lot of powder. I check how it's volume versus weight compares to the old lot. If the new weighs lighter, it is faster, so I start a bit lower(weight). It sounds silly, but it works out.


Let me add this to think about, since it's winter....

Do you think what you're seeing is JUST a change in external ballistics having a direct affect on internal ballistics?

Do you think it is JUST a change in the powder from being in whatever elements, at the match, that causes the need to retune?

Or both?

Isn't cabin fever great,

Tom

Tom

1. What I believe I'm seeing is outside atmospheric conditions (mainly "temp and humidity") changing internal and external ballistics; or in other words taking the rifle out of tune.

2. It's not as simple as just tracking the change in powder volume. Experience has taught me to read my targets. Exactly what makes a gun go out of tune I can't say. I'm a retired helicopter pilot and I've tracked all kinds of atmospheric data. I can't tune a rifle with a Kestrel. But I can get it shooting by paying attention to what the gun is telling me.
Bart

 

[LHSmith]

^^^^^What a HUGE ASSET to the forum with Bart Sauter posting on a regular basis.

 

[BartsBullets]

^^^^^What a HUGE ASSET to the forum with Bart Sauter posting on a regular basis.

Wow LH I'm blushing! Thanks for the kind words.

Bart

 

[LHSmith]

I am 100% with you on just letting the target talk Bart. The winter months I get bored and wonder why things work the way they work. During the match season, I just try to keep them working the way they're working, if indeed they're working.

Tom

Off season is a good time to prep for the next season. I prefer not to get into the why's of what works -BTDT and ended up with more questions than answers and lost focus on what WAS working. There are many things in Benchrest that cannot be explained by even the best world class shooters, yet when one personally experiences cause and effects in repeatable fashion then one just accepts the net results as fact.

 

[SteveOak]

Don't know what kind of match you were at, but you do realize that veteran competitors constantly adjust their powder drop as a means to "tune" ....they adjust according to what the target tells them ....and as already said +/- 0.1 gr difference is lost in all the other noise (SR Benchrest specifically). Harrels and Culver inserts are precision machined and as such give the shooter "feedback" as to how the measure is handling the powder........not sure plastic parts can get you to that zone where you have complete confidence in your measure.

This is what I have seen as well. BR shooters are adjusting their load on the fly, up or down a click or two from that last load. I don't shoot BR so I can't say exactly why they are making these changes or what effect they are looking for or adjusting to but I had been observing at a BR match heard top shooters talking to each other.

 

[JamesnTN]

Bart,

Can you give an example from reading your targets whether you need to increase or decrease powder charge? Things like what is the group doing in order to increase or decrease. Maybe if you have some old targets you could post up to show what to look for and what to do to correct it.

 

[BoydAllen]

James,
Have you viewed the series of segments of Jack Neary's presentation on YouTube? He talks about this very point, and there is some good information about the specifics of reading groups. Anyone that is trying to learn advanced rifle tuning should listen to that info. 2-3 times and take notes. While there are variations in how loads are worked up, the principles are the same.

On the whole subject of going with results and not getting too distracted with trying to figure out the mechanism, I agree completely. Besides a lot of those discussions are just one fellows guess vs. another's with no way to prove which is correct.

The big takeaway that often seems to be overlooked is that all of these guys like Bart do all of their tuning at the range, and make adjustments throughout the day. If you think that you can do the same thing loading at home, I have some swamp land in Florida that I want to sell you. Fine tune is too mercurial to handle that way.

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart,

Can you give an example from reading your targets whether you need to increase or decrease powder charge? Things like what is the group doing in order to increase or decrease. Maybe if you have some old targets you could post up to show what to look for and what to do to correct it.

James




James

Here's a great example of starting way too Hot. The first target just splattered. Dropped load .3 second load is still to hot. It popped a out the top and bottom of the group. Dropped another .3 and the gun is looking better but but still off a little. Target 4 dropped .2 it shot great. The fifth target the gun was still shooting but missed a condition.

 

[JamesnTN]

James




James

Here's a great example of starting way too Hot. The first target just splattered. Dropped load .3 second load is still to hot. It popped a out the top and bottom of the group. Dropped another .3 and the gun is looking better but but still off a little. Target 4 dropped .2 it shot great. The fifth target the gun was still shooting but missed a condition.

Thanks Bart, one more question. How did you know to drop the powder charge instead of increasing? I guess that's where I don't know which way to go is why I ask.

 

[BartsBullets]

Thanks Bart, one more question. How did you know to drop the powder charge instead of increasing? I guess that's where I don't know which way to go is why I ask.

James,
I try to start as hot as I can. That way there's only one way to go.

 

[JamesnTN]

James,
I try to start as hot as I can. That way there's only one way to go.

Thanks and I guess that's simplier than being in the middle and guessing like I would be. I know it's all different format but that's why I like to tune my loads for 600 yards around 80 - 85* that way I'm good for 15* either side of that.

 

[JamesnTN]

Lol, I've never got to shoot without a coat!

Tom

I guess that's why I see rifles with shorter LOP from the north than down south. You guys have to allow for the coats you wear lol.....

 

[BoydAllen]

Tony Boyer has written that because short range group shooting is all about the agg. (average) that he builds in a little insurance against shots that would pop out of a group by tuning for a half bullet hole of vertical at 100 and a full one at 200. He said that if the day is warming a it gets later, and your last group was a dot, that you had better drop your load for the next group by a substantial amount or you are likely to have a shot pop out, and it will not be by just a little. One of the advantages that has been reported about LT32 is that its nodes seem to be much broader than 133. The same has been said of tuners, that they may not increase peak accuracy, but that they broaden nodes. The reader may note that Bart uses both, has done really well of late, and shoots a scope that you may want to take note of (that he also sells).

 

[dmoran]

Bart -

When loading at the range/match, do you feel the ambient through out the day is effecting the powder itself in the thrower, when loading in an uncontrolled environment?

For myself, I'm fairly confident it has an effect (particularly due to humidity) on the powder. And prefer to charge my cases in a controlled environment as much as I can.

Good topic...... Great replies from all.......
Donovan

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart -

When loading at the range/match, do you feel the ambient through out the day is effecting the powder itself in the thrower, when loading in an uncontrolled environment?

For myself, I'm fairly confident it has an effect (particularly due to humidity) on the powder. And prefer to charge my cases in a controlled environment as much as I can.

Good topic...... Great replies from all.......
Donovan

I'm not ignoring you guys! I've been driving all day to get to NC for the Dark Corner match! 12:29 just got here time for bed! Hopefully I shoot decent tomorrow !

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart -

When loading at the range/match, do you feel the ambient through out the day is effecting the powder itself in the thrower, when loading in an uncontrolled environment?

For myself, I'm fairly confident it has an effect (particularly due to humidity) on the powder. And prefer to charge my cases in a controlled environment as much as I can.

Good topic...... Great replies from all.......
Donovan

Donovan

90 percent of the time I'm loading in a controlled environment at the range. I take a 27 ft heated and air conditioned camper. I do think that helps and is an advantage.

As for the powder itself. I think the humidity has more to do with powder changing then the temp. Even in a controlled environment when you turn the ac on it starts taking out the humidity.

 

[BartsBullets]

It has to, there no way he could be off by .8, that's damn near a whole node. What amazes me is how completely different I go about it for 1000 yard, compared to short range.

Tom

Tom,

It's not that hard to be way off on a load. I changed the load .8 to finally get on the tune. But while you're trying to find it, you have to remember the load is also changing. The by the 4th target I found it but that's 2 1/2 to 3 hours from when I started. So there was probably a 20 degree temperature change and humidity probably dropped 25%!

Here's an example of staying on the load. These are 5 groups with 10 shots in each at 200 yards.

 

[dedogs]

Tom,

It's not that hard to be way off on a load. I changed to load .8 to finally get on the tune. But while you're trying to find it, you have to remember the load is also changing. The by the 4th target I found it but that's 2 1/2 to 3 hours from when I started. So there was probably a 20 degree temperature change and humidity probably dropped 25%!

Here's an example of staying on the load. These are 5 groups with 10 shots in each at 200 yards.

Bart, That settles it. I'm gonna buy a bunch of your bullets! dedogs