Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500 vs....

[6BRinNZ]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

Jay - nice report and your time in this is appreciated. I am in the same place as Wayne, in that I wouldn't commit that sort of coin without being sure. The one question that is left burning for me though - is the GD503 any improvement over an accurate beam scale?

The GD503 seems to have negated the drift issues - has it made loading faster, are you more confident with your loads, do you feel consistency is improved (vs a beam scale)?

I ask as the other electronic scales have never been in the picture as the cons appeared to out weigh the benefits. Just to clarify I am only asking from one shooter to another since you will have had experience across them all.

And again thanks for your time.

 

[itchyTF]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

Not sure about the Acculab 123 (don’t remember) but on the TP-153 it appears you can leave the Autozero setting ON and still be able to trickle. With that setting on you can’t trickle when it’s reading zero because it “thinks” it’s drifting and will return to zero. But if you dump a charge and then trickle it will take it.

If you zero without a pan then when you lift the pan it will return to and maintain zero. Of course, you would have to add the pan weight to the charge weight for your target weight. If you tare the pan then you would have to return the empty pan to the scale to check zero before you dump another charge. Either way you always start at zero without having to press a button.

I use the first method since it maintains zero while I’m charging the case then I can immediately throw another charge. I just have to look for a higher weight when trickling. Not a big deal.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

I did my test again on my Acculab 123. Once again, not completely scientific, but a benchmark.

I weighted the pan of my scale 10 times over ten minutes, then repeated the test five hours later, then a day later. The pan weighted out at 141gr. Of the the thirty weighing, 28, were exactly 141 and two were 141.02. I performed no re-zeroing between any of these measurements. The scale was set to very unstable environmental conditions, and the Application Filter was set to 'Fill', instead of the factory default of 'Final Reading'. A graph of this data would be very boring.

These results are consistent with my previous results, but very different than reported by Jay. I don't know why there is such a difference, but I can speculate a possible reason. Jay was weighing something 10 times heavier than I was. I typically weight the powder and the pan, which runs from 141gr to 180grs. Jays weight was over 1500grs. It is possible the '123' doesn't do well with 6 digit precision.

Other have reported that the '123' can't be used for trickling because the readout jumps. In the factory default setting this is true. The factory default setting is for single weighings. If the Application Filter parameter is set to 'Filling', it works perfectly for trickling. The readout will track individual kernels as they are placed in the pan. Reading the manual is very important with this scale.

It has been suggested that the '123' is not suitable for reloading. That is definitely not been my experience. Once set up correctly, it works very well.

Since I don't have the Gem-Pro, or the 503, I can't comment on these. It may very well be that they are better. Certainly the 503 is way better.

 

[Preacher]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

My new GD503 is one of many things I've bought that after owning it for a while is still worth ever last penny I spent on it..
No drifting...No waiting..No wondering, and it's dead nuts accurate, my 50.150 grain bullet has never varied in weight ...
When I turn it on in the morning and pop the bullet on the platform it weighs 50.150, and again later in the day it still weighs the same, day after day, week after week...
I really like it.......

 

[BoydAllen]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

Matt,
Would you please tell us what you did to make your scale work better. I have a friend who has one, and I would like to be able to tell him.
Boyd

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

Historically, my best loads have been around 10 - 15 standard deviation at best. I can achieve this using a beam scale (tuned), my GemPro, or even for some powders, dropping straight from my measure.

The very first time I loaded with the GD503 and took rounds out to the range, I achieved multiple single digit standard deviations and not just barely. One string of 10 shots had an S.D. of 4. I've seen people post results achieving those kinds of S.D.'s before using various other methods, including a beam scale. However, I personally have not been able to do so.

So, the answer is not going to be definitive- many people will be able to load as fast and as well with a properly tuned beam scale. I cannot and so for me, the GD503 is definitely an improvement over my beam scale both in speed and accuracy.

Jay - nice report and your time in this is appreciated. I am in the same place as Wayne, in that I wouldn't commit that sort of coin without being sure. The one question that is left burning for me though - is the GD503 any improvement over an accurate beam scale?

The GD503 seems to have negated the drift issues - has it made loading faster, are you more confident with your loads, do you feel consistency is improved (vs a beam scale)?

I ask as the other electronic scales have never been in the picture as the cons appeared to out weigh the benefits. Just to clarify I am only asking from one shooter to another since you will have had experience across them all.

And again thanks for your time.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

I did only three things to make the '123' work better. I leave it plugged in all the time. Its not ON, only plugged in. I set the Environmental parameter to 'Very Unstable' instead of the factory default of 'Stable'. I set the Application Filter parameter to 'Filling' instead of the factory default of 'Final Readout'. This allows trickling and weighing in less than laboratory conditions. This scale will pick up the air movement from my hand above the pan.

Read the manual very carefully. The first time I tried to change parameters, I didn't do it correctly and I the changes didn't take. I found it useful to go back in and verify my changes. The manual does make sense, but it not intuitive. Once again, be careful and thorough when making changes.

With these changes, I can trickle charges, and the scale responds accurately, but slowly. Patience is a requirement when working with this scale. I need to experiment with the environmental parameter to see which setting is the best combination of accuracy and speed.

The factory default setting are not appropriate for reloading. They must be changed to make this scale useful. With the appropriate parameter changes it works just fine.

One more point. The room that I use has a very constant temperature and humidity, varying by no more than 5-8 degrees, and humidity controlled to about 50%. I'm not sure if this is important, but possibly could affect long term drift.

EDIT: 10-6 Checked the scale again this morning. No drift. Of 10 weighing, the pan still weights 141.00gr. Set the environmental to 'Stable'. Much faster, more sensitive. BTW: My bench is on a concrete floor, steel, and bolted to the wall, with a 1.5" wood top. Very stable.

 

[dreever]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

When Denver Instruments first brought out the MXX123 I was one of the first to jump on the bandwagon. I've used it ever since without any problems whatsoever. My reloading room is below ground level, concrete floor,studded and insulated walls, heated and humidity controlled, with 100% fluorescent lighting. My loading bench is huge, heavy as hell made out of 2x4 and 2x6's and is dead level. My scale sits on a 2" thick granite surface plate and runs thru a line conditioner. Don't know if any of this makes a difference, but like I said I've never encountered the problems reported by others.

Danny

 

[6BRinNZ]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

Historically, my best loads have been around 10 - 15 standard deviation at best. I can achieve this using a beam scale (tuned), my GemPro, or even for some powders, dropping straight from my measure.

The very first time I loaded with the GD503 and took rounds out to the range, I achieved multiple single digit standard deviations and not just barely. One string of 10 shots had an S.D. of 4. I've seen people post results achieving those kinds of S.D.'s before using various other methods, including a beam scale. However, I personally have not been able to do so.

So, the answer is not going to be definitive- many people will be able to load as fast and as well with a properly tuned beam scale. I cannot and so for me, the GD503 is definitely an improvement over my beam scale both in speed and accuracy.

Jay - nice report and your time in this is appreciated. I am in the same place as Wayne, in that I wouldn't commit that sort of coin without being sure. The one question that is left burning for me though - is the GD503 any improvement over an accurate beam scale?

The GD503 seems to have negated the drift issues - has it made loading faster, are you more confident with your loads, do you feel consistency is improved (vs a beam scale)?

I ask as the other electronic scales have never been in the picture as the cons appeared to out weigh the benefits. Just to clarify I am only asking from one shooter to another since you will have had experience across them all.

And again thanks for your time.

Jay - Thanks for the reply.

 

[AJ]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

jaychris
Thanks for doing the testing. I know it wasn't easy for me to part with $900. for the GD503 but I was just to frustrated with my Acculab 123. Just like Bozo699 I was told my Acculab 123 was the best. It was nothing but frustration. Matt Pitchion you must be living under a lucky star or in a vaccuum to be getting such good results, either way more power to ya. I know my reloading quality and confidence in my reloading has gone way up since I have purchased my GD503. I took 2nd at the last steel prairie dog match at CRC and shot pretty well at Raton last month. I feel it has really helped me in the game. I have since sold my Acculab 123 and my RCBS Chargemaster as they just too crude of instruments for my liking.
AJ

 

[ridgeway]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

What is the guys name/contact info that sells accurized beam scales?

 

[bozo699]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

What is the guys name/contact info that sells accurized beam scales?

I believe his name is Scott Parker, hope this helps.
Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

I copied and pasted this from an old post.

I use a tuned Redding scale and a Saeco powder measure. The scale is sensitive at the milligram level. I have another Saeco powder measure and can provide you with a tuned scale as well. You cam contact me at vld223@yahoo.com or 661 364 1199.

Scott Parker
Bakersfield CA

 

[bozo699]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

Dag nabbit Boyd you always have to out do me,...I came up with a name, you had to come up with a address and phone #
Wayne.

 

[memilanuk]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

Well, the results above make me feel better about my GD-503 - which I was already tickled pink with!

The 'Filling' setting on the VIC-123 is one I wished I'd known about when I had it - I usually removed the pan to add/remove kernels, which worked well enough, albeit a little slower.

My primary gripe with it was that it would be 'stable' sitting at '0.00' for days, even weeks on end, with nary a blip. When I went to use it though, it may work as advertised... or it might take off drifting. Once it started, there really wasn't anything that seemed to work, other than to just walk away. Might be an hour, might be the next day before it would settle and stop drifting. After going to considerable time and expense (including phone calls with both the vendor and the manufacturer), I gave up.

One of the other things about the GD503 is the draft ring. Glass hutch aside, the draft ring setup on the 503 is *considerably* better at keeping stray air currents from breathing/ hand movements from affecting readings. With the glass hutch... I usually leave the side door on mine open while weighing both for access and for the trickler.

Some people like Matt have had zero problems with theirs. Some like me have almost nothing *but* problems with theirs. Most people are somewhere in between. The fact still remains that a lot of corners were cut to manufacturer a milligram scale in that price range. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Leaddog]

Scale Comparison: Sartorius AY123 vs. Sartorius GD503 vs. GemPro 500

I've had beam scales and digital. Beam scales did not work for me. As for digital, I had a Sarorius AY 123 and it did not do the job. Constantly drifting. I purchased a GD503 and an Omega Power Trickler. Problem solved.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Thanks to John Adams (jadams) for sending me a Denver Instruments TP153 to perform the same test on. I used the same check weight, environment, PDU, measuring intervals, etc... to test the scale. It should be noted that the scale is setup for "unstable" conditions, which slowed down the reading. However, it was still several seconds faster than the AY123's unstable mode.

I believe (but am not 100% positive) that the TP153 is a strain-gauge scale, similar to the Sartorius AY123 and Acculab 123. In testing, it performed on par with the GemPro 500 and much better than the AY123. The graphs on the first post have been updated along with the data in the second post.

I probably would not have a problem using the TP153, although I would definitely tare frequently (similar to the GemPro 500) and I would not trust it for more than a few weighings at a time.

The GD503 is still an order of magnitude more accurate, responsive, and doesn't require frequent tare-ing. My guess is that I could run a test where I let the GD503 sit for a week without tare-ing and it would still beat out the other scales. When I ran this test, my GD503 had been sitting for nearly a month on the table with the power on and no usage. Just for the heck of it, I weighed my check weight on it and it was still within .015 of true.

 

[itchyTF]

I was told by Sartorius that the TP153 was not strain gauge. I also believe you will have better results if you turn auto-zero on with a tared empty pan. Trickling at zero won't work but once you throw a charge it will.

 

[MontanaBob]

I realize this is an old thread but I thought I would revive it anyway.

The deviation in the Acculab 123 (now the Sartorius AY123) was only .2 grains. That is less than 8 kernels of powder. Of course that would vary somewhat with the powder but a single kernel of Varget weighs .025 - .035 grains on a GD-503. Someone would have to prove to me that 8 kernels of powder would make any noticeable difference on point of impact, even at 1000 yards for me to believe it. I mean in 41 grains is 1172 to 1640 kernels of Varget. So, 8 grains is only a .00068 variance at the most. No one can judge the wind speed to that degree of accuracy.

If you have the money and competition shooting is your thing, fine, spend the $1325.00 on the Sartorius GD-503. For the other reloaders a variation of 8 kernels of powder over all your cases, for $310.00 (price for the Sartorius AY123) is a bargain, IMO.

 

[jlow]

Sorry for the slow response. Seems I missed the original post.... Nice and interesting tests. Much appreciated and good to know. A few suggestion:

1) Run the test again using a couple of check weight closer to the weight range that most of the reloaders would be interested in. That would be in the range of 10 and100 grains. The one you are using is about 15x greater than the highest range i.e. 100 grain that most of us are interested in. A balance may or may not perform in the same way through its complete weigh range and so the lower weight would be more appropriate.

2) Include if possible the GemPro 250 which more people are using. This balance has a slightly more sensitive weight range compared to the GemPro 500 i.e. 0.02 vs 0.05 grain.

3) Test the stability of the balance from the time they power up to when they show stability (whenever that turns out to be). Currently the stable time appears to range from minutes to days depending on who you talk to.

4) Test the effect of calibration on their accuracy/stability.