March vs NF

[Alex Wheeler]

Most all 2nd plane scopes will shift poi when changing power. @tom tested many of the different models and would remember if any stood out as better or worse. 1st focal planes and the ep zoom dont have this issue. You should never adjust the power of your scope during a match.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Yeah, let's not get carried away and impugn the reliability of SFP zoom scopes in one fell swoop. In olden days, the POA shift could sometimes be detected in zoom scopes when you massively changed magnification. I have only detected it once, on a different brand of optics. It was about a half-inch high at 50 yards using a very accurate 22LR that was on a rest. It was repeatable, exactly the same way going from top mag to bottom mag. But this needed a target that was very close and very small, something that I could reliably hold the reticle on, regardless of the magnification. In real life in a match, you will drop from highest mag down to something a little lower. For example, the 8-80X that @Appalachian was taking about, if you go from 80X to 40X, the internal change is minimal, and you would not see any shifting. It would require something more drastic, like going to 16X, for this to show, if it was even there. The problem with that is that it is more likely that the aim is not as precise at 20X, as it can be at 80X.

Unless you can detect, and reproduce every time, for example going from 80X to 20X and seeing the exact same shift in POI, you have nothing. In other words, it won't be random. At least that has been my experience and understanding and then again, I've only been able to reproduce is with one riflescope, many years ago.

And like everything else, this issue can occur on one sample and not another for the exact same riflescope.

This is why I used the words "with an ironclad guarantee of absolutely no shifting of POA navigating the zoom," to qualify the use of the EPZoom riflescope. What @Alex Wheeler says about not shifting the power in a match is very right for benchrest shooters, where even the slightest jiggle will be of consequence. When it comes to F-class and long-range stuff, you simply cannot use an FFP scope for high precision, the reticle at 60X or 80X will obliterate the target and will produce more shifting than whatever POA shift may exist in your high mag, high dollar SFP riflescope. Also, I don't ever remember going from 80X to 20X in the middle of a string.

 

[tom]

Most all 2nd plane scopes will shift poi when changing power. @tom tested many of the different models and would remember if any stood out as better or worse. 1st focal planes and the ep zoom dont have this issue. You should never adjust the power of your scope during a match.

Thee original notebook was in my map pocket still, remind me later to look those notes up!



Tom

 

[JFrank]

@Texas Solo
This March is somewhat affordable/palatable for BR work but I know nothing about the product line.

Before we continue

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

@JFrank , that is a great scope, and I keep forgetting about it. It's a30mm tube, 10-60X52 and it weights 25 ounces. I've seen a number of shooters at various F-class matches with that scope, and they like it.
March 10-60X56

 

[FTR_Mojo]

Thee original notebook was in my map pocket still, remind me later to look those notes up!

View attachment 1717056

Tom

I'd be really interested in seeing your results Tom. I'm not shooting BR, but I would really appreciate the information so I can see what you discovered. Even if the only result is me explaining away a 'flyer' if I have to change magnification during a match.

 

[tom]

@Appalachian @FTR_Mojo

What models are you interested in, I will see if one or more was in my book?

Tom

On an entirely off topic note: this must have been around the time there were some claiming that muzzle velocity was drastically changed by holding the rifle vs free recoil. Being the dumbass that I am, I chronographed while checking multiple scopes, and forming brass one day - see below

 

[FTR_Mojo]

@Appalachian @FTR_Mojo

What models are you interested in, I will see if one or more was in my book?

Tom

On an entirely off topic note: this must have been around the time there were some claiming that muzzle velocity was drastically changed by holding the rifle vs free recoil. Being the dumbass that I am, I chronographed while checking multiple scopes, and forming brass one day - see below

View attachment 1717178

I own the march 8-80 (not majesta) and the 10-60 hm. so I am particularly interested in those. However, i am interested in your findings generally too. I always suspected that a point of impact change was happening with zoom changes but never actually tested it.

 

[tom]

I own the march 8-80 (not majesta) and the 10-60 hm. so I am particularly interested in those. However, i am interested in your findings generally too. I always suspected that a point of impact change was happening with zoom changes but never actually tested it.

Here's the only March brand scopes in my book that have variable tests included. My Majesta may go on this winter, as I need to make brass, but it's on a rifle that I don't have to aim so possibly I don't care lol.



Cliffnotes reading through after dinner:

Don't dial, don't change power for all makes and models except maybe the kahles. Those were pretty good (perfect) on everything mechanical. If they could have been used with sunlight touching the barrel, we wouldn't be looking for something better.

That said, I currently use with confidence, March 10-60×52s on my two 1st string light guns, and the Majesta on my heavy gun. The March's do move about 1/4 moa average in this one category, but all but one were darn solid in the poa department. I mostly don't test the variable thing, as most do move a little so I just don't change it.

Tom

 

[ELR LVR]

If I may ask how did a turret get trashed. ?
Everyone comments how reliable N F is ( take them off use for a hammer put em back on keep shooting)
Best warranty is one never used. ( Straight from their warranty page ).

Not bad mouthing or running NF down. Never could justify the expense. It sounds like if it took 2 months to get it back, they are back logged with repairs. So that takes repir warranty out of the comparison list. Yes I have used Vortex warranty, never took that long to get it back, either repaired, or replaced.

I'm looking at one last rifle build, and putting more emphasis on the optic this time.

Still looking for someone that has "USED " a NF atacr7 x35-56. & a Vortex gen 3 7 X 36 -56.
(If I got the numbers correct.) Which one was better, & WHY 1000 yards & more.( Shooting steel)
Shooting only, not ranging distances .

Thinking about a transition to mil system this time. So far I like the N F Mil C reticle more than
the. VORTEX reticle.

Thank you to all, and to all A wonderful Thanksgiving.!

Best warranty is one you dont have to use
Which is why I went with a Kahles
I'm sure they make a bad one once in awhile
but their warranty is also good and they have been making scopes since the late 1800's
I went with the internal construction standpoint (No brass)
It was the S&B equal at the time, it's been holding up well

 

[ELR LVR]

For those that shoot March and Kahles and do not have a scope checker, how do they know their scope is holding point of impact any better than a NF ?

By the repeatability I see at long range 1000 yds and beyond
I am a "turret twister"
I like using my DOPE chart and Lapua App for every yardage and make adjustments constantly
so when I shoot at 100 yds to confirm zero
then progress out to 600....my dope lines up with my APP
then go back to 100 to rezero, and the Zero lines up and I put another bullet into the group
every time .....every year....for years
and then when it lines up again at 1200, 1300, 1500, 2200 etc
I have a few spots I shoot 1000 to 1500 yds
and I memorized my elevation for each spot
and every time I go out,, sometimes every week, and I adjust the same amount (within 1/10th Mil)
every time
for years
I know there aint nothing moving internally
it really pisses my buddies off
the only thing that throws me off is when my barrel looses velocity due to wear and I have to work up a new trajectory chart or rebarrel
---
Shown is one such target i shot 3 shots with a Kahles to confirm my 100 yd zero
went out to shoot at 600 yds
(then packed up from 600, drove back, reset up at 100, dialed back down to zero
and fired one more into the same group at 100 at the end of the day to reconfirm its zero was still on)
Good enough for me

 

[FTR_Mojo]

Here's the only March brand scopes in my book that have variable tests included. My Majesta may go on this winter, as I need to make brass, but it's on a rifle that I don't have to aim so possibly I don't care lol.

View attachment 1717245View attachment 1717246View attachment 1717247View attachment 1717248

Cliffnotes reading through after dinner:

Don't dial, don't change power for all makes and models except maybe the kahles. Those were pretty good (perfect) on everything mechanical. If they could have been used with sunlight touching the barrel, we wouldn't be looking for something better.

That said, I currently use with confidence, March 10-60×52s on my two 1st string light guns, and the Majesta on my heavy gun. The March's do move about 1/4 moa average in this one category, but all but one were darn solid in the poa department. I mostly don't test the variable thing, as most do move a little so I just don't change it.

Tom

Thanks very much Tom. I suppose the good news is if you absolutely have to change zoom, keep to the top end and its ok.

 

[JFrank]

Thanks @tom for keeping good notes and sharing them at all.
Hopefully we can get together when and if you decide to test a bit, I have a couple targets from the Nationals that one shot on each were tough to digest.

Was it the scope or my lousy shooting ?

 

[tom]

Thanks @tom for keeping good notes and sharing them at all.
Hopefully we can get together when and if you decide to test a bit, I have a couple targets from the Nationals that one shot on each were tough to digest.

Was it the scope or my lousy shooting ?

What make and model? And did you adjust the turrets just before (after last sighter)?

Tom

 

[JFrank]

What make and model? And did you adjust the turrets just before (after last sighter)?

Tom

I’ll give you a call this evening, I generally wont adjust late if I can’t send a conformation shot but I don’t recall on those exact targets.

 

[tvaught]

Manufacturers need to reach out to top shooters and smiths because it seems like they don't know what we need. Makes no sense to build a scope that half of your customer base can't use because its too heavy.

I know of at least 1 major scope Manufacturer that is reading this thread and paying attention to the part I clipped as a quote.

 

[jimmymac]

I was disappointed when the NF 42 was discontinued. Obviously that scope must not have been a big enough seller. Not too many options left for a good high magnification fixed power scope.

 

[Mulligan]

I was disappointed when the NF 42 was discontinued. Obviously that scope must not have been a big enough seller. Not too many options left for a good high magnification fixed power scope.

The March 48x is a dandy in my opinion.
It is that combination of light or lighter weight and holding POI that is apparently a tough build????
CW

 

[jackieschmidt]

I was disappointed when the NF 42 was discontinued. Obviously that scope must not have been a big enough seller. Not too many options left for a good high magnification fixed power scope.

I bought two when they hit the market.
NF missed the market trend, which favored higher magnification. That, and the first one I bought would not hold Point of Impact.
For my LV Group Rifle, I use the March High Master 48x.
For my Varmint for Score Rifle, I like the NF 15x55 comp.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I do understand why the big manufactures are putting more effort into the PRS and heavier F class scopes. BR and especially LR BR is not growing. Its shrinking and the real serious guys are dwindling. So theres not a huge market other than to just be the best.