Man I am confused????

[wisconsinteacher]

I am trying to learn but am having a hard time. Over the past years of reloading, I have read that a FL sizing die over works the brass and that a neck sizing die is better for accuracy. After posting here, I read that my guys use the Redding type S FL sizing die with a bushing. My question is, will the FL sizing die over work the brass and shorten it's life? Also, isn't the neck sizer with the correct bushing going to give good accuracy and when need be, I could use a body die to bump the shoulder back? Sorry for the stupid questions, I just am wanting to learn and get the right die set up.

One last question, does a guy need a comp seater? I am not trying to be cheap but is the reason for the comp seater more for COAL measurements or to limit runout while seating?

 

[LHSmith]

If you use anything hotter than mild loads, chances are sooner or later you're going to have to FL size as Neck sizing only will cause problems chambering and hard extraction- not good for lugs and primary extraction cam. I only use bushing dies on cases that are neck-turned (competition). i consider competition dies as bells bells and whistles that are not necessary. I do use in-line seaters for most chamberings.
Annealing brass will prolong case life and improve accuracy. Reloading techniques are always evolving.

 

[wisconsinteacher]

Dmoran that really clears it up. Thank you! So the Redding FL is looking better. Now to pick a seating die.

 

[watercam]

Definitely not stupid questions at all. The Full Length Type S dies size the body, set back the shoulder and size the neck. First the body:
Most competitive shooters that I know (and know of) full length size every time. This allows the cartridge to chamber every time without fail. If you neck size only you will find that after a few firings it will become very difficult to chamber your rounds. With good dies your ammunition will be concentric and will shoot very well.
Shoulder bump:
You should set up your die to bump your shoulder back about .001-.003". This is one of two ways you are attempting to not over work your brass and allow the cartridge to center itself in the chamber more precisely.
You can obtain a bump gauge from Sinclair or size a fired case with the die unscrewed about 1/4 turn to start. Insert into your chamber and (with the trigger pulled so you are not cocking the action) close the bolt. You should feel some resistance. Resize by turning the die down 1/16 turn at a time until the action just closes with little resistance. Good enough.
Neck bushing:
The neck bushing system allows to you control the neck tension of your rounds consistently. Measure the diameter of a loaded round (or add the thickness of your neck brass on both sides plus the diameter of the bullet). Subtract .001" if single loading or .003" if feeding from a magazine. Do not use the expander ball that comes with your die unless the necks have been bent or damaged in some way. This is the other way you are saving your brass from being overworked. A typical sizing die opens the neck with the expander ball, closes the neck down more than it needs to then opens up the neck with the second pass over the expander.
Seating dies:
I have had some very concentric ammunition with standard seating dies but with everything you are doing (and spending) to have the most accurate ammunition possible I feel the extra cost of seating dies with sliding chambers (Forster, Redding and Hornady to name three) is well worth it. The standard Forster die has a sliding chamber but no Micrometer top - you may save a couple of bucks there. You can add a micrometer top to that die later.
When I started reloading the technical gents at Sinclair recommended Redding Type S FL sizers and Forster Standard Benchrest Seaters. It was good advice.
Best of luck to you, keep the questions coming!
Mike

 

[Tozguy]

I am trying to learn but am having a hard time. Over the past years of reloading, I have read that a FL sizing die over works the brass and that a neck sizing die is better for accuracy. After posting here, I read that my guys use the Redding type S FL sizing die with a bushing. My question is, will the FL sizing die over work the brass and shorten it's life? Also, isn't the neck sizer with the correct bushing going to give good accuracy and when need be, I could use a body die to bump the shoulder back? Sorry for the stupid questions, I just am wanting to learn and get the right die set up.

One last question, does a guy need a comp seater? I am not trying to be cheap but is the reason for the comp seater more for COAL measurements or to limit runout while seating?

There is more than one way to get good results. My approach for short range target work is to use moderate loads, quality bullets, Lapua brass, collet neck sizing, body die when needed, and a micrometer top floating sleeve seater.

Of course we each have our own way of enjoying reloading and make our choices of equipment accordingly. I hope the 'hard time' you are having eventually turns into a 'good time'.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Full Length size every time with minimal shoulder bump.

 

[wisconsinteacher]

I just want to thank everyone for the help. My "hard time" is why I enjoy it so much.

 

[Tozguy]

Full Length size every time with minimal shoulder bump.

Just curious about a couple of things. I understand that your FL die is set up to give the minimal amount of FL sizing. Considering that the fired cases going in the die might not all be the same size to start with, some cases will get worked more than others for them all to come out the same size. Do you know if any cases come out of the FL with changes only in neck dimensions?

How do you determine minimal sizing dimensions? Easy chambering, easy extraction or something else?

 

[Tozguy]

I just want to thank everyone for the help. My "hard time" is why I enjoy it so much.

And fortunately there seems to be no shortage of difficulties to encounter.

 

[AlNyhus]

Full length sizing every time with a well fitted bushing die is where you want to be. Reddings Type 'S' dies are top shelf (I'd recommend the non-micrometer style). If you have a PPC, BR, Dasher or a 6.5X47 Lapua case and it's variants (ike a 30X47L), Harrel's makes a great f.l. bushing die. Harrel's has a selection of dies that they can match to your fired cases to give just the correct amt. of sizing needed. The Harrels dies also come with a shoulder 'bump' guage to make it simple to see how much you're setting the shoulder back...and all for about $75 to your door. Harrels will also exchange your die if you find you need a bit more/less sizing. If you're working with a case other than these, go for the Redding Type 'S' (non micometer top) and you'll be in great shape.

Both the Harrels and the Redding f.l. bushing dies leave a small amt. of neck unsized just above the neck/shoulder junction...which in theory should center the case relative to the throat.

For a seater, I strongly suggest a standard, non-micrometer top, non-stainless Wilson seater. With the thread pitch on the Wilson seaters, each full rotation changes the seating depth by .040, which makes it a snap to quickly change your seating depth. Just measure the overall length of the seating stem/cap assy. after you find the 'just touching' dimension, record it and then you always have a reference point from where to go. You'll need a small arbor press for the Wilson seater. The K&M http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/arbor-press/arbor-press.htmlld or Bald Eagle
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Arbor-Press/BE1001 are both great.

Want to change the seating depth .010?. Look at the stem from the top, loosen the screw, turn the stem 90 degrees and you're there. After a few times you'll find you'll not be off by more than .002-.003 when checked with a caliper.

Lots of ways to approach this,but this works for me. For what it's worth........

Have fun and good shootin'! -Al

 

[Erik Cortina]

Full Length size every time with minimal shoulder bump.

Just curious about a couple of things. I understand that your FL die is set up to give the minimal amount of FL sizing. Considering that the fired cases going in the die might not all be the same size to start with, some cases will get worked more than others for them all to come out the same size. Do you know if any cases come out of the FL with changes only in neck dimensions?

How do you determine minimal sizing dimensions? Easy chambering, easy extraction or something else?

Fired cases should all be the same size since you just fire formed them with 50,000+ psi!

Get a hornady headspace gauge, and bump the shoulder back about .002", brass should chamber nicely.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Full length sizing every time with a well fitted bushing die is where you want to be. Reddings Type 'S' dies are top shelf (I'd recommend the non-micrometer style). If you have a PPC, BR, Dasher or a 6.5X47 Lapua case and it's variants (ike a 30X47L), Harrel's makes a great f.l. bushing die. Harrel's has a selection of dies that they can match to your fired cases to give just the correct amt. of sizing needed. The Harrels dies also come with a shoulder 'bump' guage to make it simple to see how much you're setting the shoulder back...and all for about $75 to your door. Harrels will also exchange your die if you find you need a bit more/less sizing. If you're working with a case other than these, go for the Redding Type 'S' (non micometer top) and you'll be in great shape.

Both the Harrels and the Redding f.l. bushing dies leave a small amt. of neck unsized just above the neck/shoulder junction...which in theory should center the case relative to the throat.

For a seater, I strongly suggest a standard, non-micrometer top, non-stainless Wilson seater. With the thread pitch on the Wilson seaters, each full rotation changes the seating depth by .040, which makes it a snap to quickly change your seating depth. Just measure the overall length of the seating stem/cap assy. after you find the 'just touching' dimension, record it and then you always have a reference point from where to go. You'll need a small arbor press for the Wilson seater. The K&M http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/arbor-press/arbor-press.htmlld or Bald Eagle
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Arbor-Press/BE1001 are both great.

Want to change the seating depth .010?. Look at the stem from the top, loosen the screw, turn the stem 90 degrees and you're there. After a few times you'll find you'll not be off by more than .002-.003 when checked with a caliper.

Lots of ways to approach this,but this works for me. For what it's worth........

Have fun and good shootin'! -Al

The easiest way to adjust a Wilson die without micrometer top is to measure the overall length of the stem and cap, then move the stem, tighten, and check again with calipers. That is the easiest and most accurate way to do it.

 

[AlNyhus]

The easiest way to adjust a Wilson die without micrometer top is to measure the overall length of the stem and cap, then move the stem, tighten, and check again with calipers. That is the easiest and most accurate way to do it.

'Morning, Erik.

I believe I'd addressed that issue with this quote from my post:

"Just measure the overall length of the seating stem/cap assy. after you find the 'just touching' dimension, record it and then you always have a reference point from where to go."

In any case, a pic. is worth a thousand words...so here's what we're both refering to:

 

[Erik Cortina]

The easiest way to adjust a Wilson die without micrometer top is to measure the overall length of the stem and cap, then move the stem, tighten, and check again with calipers. That is the easiest and most accurate way to do it.

'Morning, Erik.

I believe I'd addressed that issue with this quote from my post:

"Just measure the overall length of the seating stem/cap assy. after you find the 'just touching' dimension, record it and then you always have a reference point from where to go."

In any case, a pic. is worth a thousand words...so here's what we're both refering to:

+1 on this method

 

[Tozguy]

Full Length size every time with minimal shoulder bump.

Just curious about a couple of things. I understand that your FL die is set up to give the minimal amount of FL sizing. Considering that the fired cases going in the die might not all be the same size to start with, some cases will get worked more than others for them all to come out the same size. Do you know if any cases come out of the FL with changes only in neck dimensions?

How do you determine minimal sizing dimensions? Easy chambering, easy extraction or something else?

Fired cases should all be the same size since you just fire formed them with 50,000+ psi!

Get a hornady headspace gauge, and bump the shoulder back about .002", brass should chamber nicely.

If fired cases extract and rechamber easily why do they need to be FL resized?

Fired cases SHOULD all be the same size after firing but they are not, at least not always. Some will be easier to rechamber than others.

 

[Tozguy]

Full length sizing every time with a well fitted bushing die is where you want to be. Reddings Type 'S' dies are top shelf (I'd recommend the non-micrometer style). If you have a PPC, BR, Dasher or a 6.5X47 Lapua case and it's variants (ike a 30X47L), Harrel's makes a great f.l. bushing die. Harrel's has a selection of dies that they can match to your fired cases to give just the correct amt. of sizing needed. The Harrels dies also come with a shoulder 'bump' guage to make it simple to see how much you're setting the shoulder back...and all for about $75 to your door. Harrels will also exchange your die if you find you need a bit more/less sizing. If you're working with a case other than these, go for the Redding Type 'S' (non micometer top) and you'll be in great shape.

Both the Harrels and the Redding f.l. bushing dies leave a small amt. of neck unsized just above the neck/shoulder junction...which in theory should center the case relative to the throat.

For a seater, I strongly suggest a standard, non-micrometer top, non-stainless Wilson seater. With the thread pitch on the Wilson seaters, each full rotation changes the seating depth by .040, which makes it a snap to quickly change your seating depth. Just measure the overall length of the seating stem/cap assy. after you find the 'just touching' dimension, record it and then you always have a reference point from where to go. You'll need a small arbor press for the Wilson seater. The K&M http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/arbor-press/arbor-press.htmlld or Bald Eagle
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Arbor-Press/BE1001 are both great.

Want to change the seating depth .010?. Look at the stem from the top, loosen the screw, turn the stem 90 degrees and you're there. After a few times you'll find you'll not be off by more than .002-.003 when checked with a caliper.

Lots of ways to approach this,but this works for me. For what it's worth........

Have fun and good shootin'! -Al

Al, is neck turning a necessity to get good results from a bushing die?

What don't you like about a micrometer top seater? My measurements have shown that the micrometer is 100% reliable and repeatable.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Brass needs to be F/L sized every time even if they chamber and extract easily, because the dimensions are no longer exactly what they were last time you fired it and eventually it will get too tight to chamber.

Think of F/L sizing like showering every day. Some days you might not even leave the house, but you still shower because even though you are clean, you are not as clean as you were after you showered. ;D

 

[Tozguy]

I have found that (with collet sizing only) the body of my 6BR cases stops growing after 3 firings. After 7 to 8 firings MOST of them still chamber easily. Granted, if the shoulder was bumped back by .002'' after every firing then chambering and extraction should be that much easier. Also, any maverick case would automatically be put back in its place without my noticing. However, after the initial fireforming I have not seen any indication that there would be an accuracy advantage to regular shoulder bumping of cases that are already a good fit in the chamber.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I have found that (with collet sizing only) the body of my 6BR cases stops growing after 3 firings. After 7 to 8 firings MOST of them still chamber easily. Granted, if the shoulder was bumped back by .002'' after every firing then chambering and extraction should be that much easier. Also, any maverick case would automatically be put back in its place without my noticing. However, after the initial fireforming I have not seen any indication that there would be an accuracy advantage to regular shoulder bumping of cases that are already a good fit in the chamber.

"Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still"

Good luck with your shooting and reloading.

 

[AlNyhus]

Al, is neck turning a necessity to get good results from a bushing die?

Well....think of it this way: The hole in the neck bushing is perfectly round. What happens when you push a neck that's not round (due to wall thickness inconsistencies, etc.) into a round hole? The sized neck will now be round on the outside but not round on the inside...the inconsistent thickness has to go somewhere. Now, before someone puts my feet to the fire and points out (correctly) that a fired case neck is perfectly round (or at least as round as the neck area of the chamber is)....that would be correct. But the inconsistency is still inside the neck.

One of the major components to accuracy is geting the seated bullet so that it enters the rifling in as exact a manner as possible....how is this going to happen with a bullet that's already off axis relative to the throat?

I'm not going to hazard a guess as to how much neck thickness variance you need to have before the use of a bushing type die either negates any benefits or even makes thngs worse. I just know what I've found in my own a-b-a testing with my competition rigs as well as my factory and custom barrelled hunting stuff, is all. Much of this has to do with the throat diameter (how much over the bullet shank diameter the throat is), the lead angle of the throat, how the case is sized relative to shoulder 'bump' and how much the shoulder/body angle is reduced in diameter in the sizing process.

What don't you like about a micrometer top seater? My measurements have shown that the micrometer is 100% reliable and repeatable.

I didn't write that I don't like micrometer tops. What I wrote was: "I strongly suggest a standard, non-micrometer top, non-stainless Wilson seater."

Good shootin'. -Al