Lot Numbers

[wildcat3d]

I was in the industry and have been to the warehouse many times. The warehouse is huge!
You may not know or realize it but Natchez (internet retail) and Chattanooga Shooting Sports (National Distributor) are the same company and operate from the same warehouse. It would likely take the guy 30 minutes to go to the spot that ammo was in, check the lot numbers and get back to the phone. Then if you decided to order someone else had likely bought all they had.
In the times we live in today the best way to get "enough" of ammo that shoots great in your gun you will need to go to a test center that will allow you to buy a case of the good stuff once you find it.

I ran a Warehouse in the U.S. Army that stocked parts for over 200 vehicle's talking over 750.000 parts and I could find you a tiny screw in a matter of minutes, no computers just keeping track of what came in and what went out, would take longer to pull the part. just saying with all the tech today to say I don't know what I have is ridiculous, the fun part was once a month inventory, three days 7 people and S... all accounted for...so yes it can be done, ever seen a amazon warehouse? they know where all there stuff is... again just saying imo They need a warehouse Manager.

 

[Riverchef42]

It is down to this
We are buying all we can find--shoot it--test it--keep or sell it
That is the formula these days
Much more of this and I will be off to Whiddens, hang my head and say OK...Let me test with Eley
If you do the math--being able to test as many as 15 lots--surely you should be able to come up with one that will work?? or keep buying small amounts of Lapua Blind with fingers crossed

It hurts to attend a match knowing you could win with better ammo --that is is your ability as a
"Radar O'Reilly" scrounger that matters these days UGH!

I have bought another CZ MTR guessing that now I have doubled my chances of a new ammo working--seemed like a better strategy than anything else

Funny thing is I can say I just bought these 7 bricks and it shoots like crap and someones says I will take it!

When it all gets too much I pull out my 6BR and go nail some beautiful groups easy as can be with whatever left over reloads I had from months ago

For those of us who have limited budgets, we buy what we can get our hands on. SK rifle match, center x. I am scrounging for what I afford to buy. A lot of times I blame myself for a bad shot, when maybe it was a combination of things.
(Off topic, thanks for your advice on cleaning the barrel dusterdave)

 

[VLNBYR]

Only "some" bad lots shoot "good" in other rifles -- not all bad lots? There are bad lots of .22LR match ammo that don't shoot in any rifles. What's the difference between such bad lots?

Bad is bad. How would one barrel "correct" what others can't?

This is a pretty bold statement. My opinion is that the frequency of truly "bad" lots is probably equal to the frequency of truly great "killer" lots.

 

[shoot4fun]

I ran a Warehouse in the U.S. Army that stocked parts for over 200 vehicle's talking over 750.000 parts and I could find you a tiny screw in a matter of minutes, no computers just keeping track of what came in and what went out, would take longer to pull the part. just saying with all the tech today to say I don't know what I have is ridiculous, the fun part was once a month inventory, three days 7 people and S... all accounted for...so yes it can be done, ever seen a amazon warehouse? they know where all there stuff is... again just saying imo They need a warehouse Manager.

The difference in your stellar performance as warehouse manager and the person who answers the phone is that the guy on the phone is a salesperson and likely has little to do in the warehouse. He's paid to sell. Not only that but having remote sales associates that are no where near the actual warehouse (read work from home) would make it extremely time consuming for him to "go check a lot number".
Now, let's talk about the caller wanting one lot of a particular ammo but the lot in your warehouse is not it.
Then that sales associate has wasted time he could have spent helping other customers buy thousands of other products.
Amazon warehouses utilize a lot of robotics. Many of those systems were pioneered by pharmaceutical industry and those have even filtered into the firearms and accessory industry.
I know at this point what 22LR vendor I can ask about lot numbers and which I can't. They are the smaller but still very important suppliers I depend on.

 

[Ranger188]

The biggest issue is, these place know they will sell it (fast) without going
through the trouble of walking over to the inventory of ammo and looking
up the lot numbers.
That's why the few that take the time to have that info on hand or place
it online for you to see get my business.

The issue with "bad lots" is their are very few "bad" lots their are lots
that don't shoot well in your rifle but might shoot well in others.
You have to test.

@dusterdave173 has a good thing going on. Probably has a bunch of
shooters and he buys a lot of ammo then the ammo he doesn't like
he can then sell to the others for them to test.

I and a friend have the same Lilja barrel (length and contour) and received
at the same time, but they like a different lot of ammo.

 

[VLNBYR]

Who you're dealing with has some importance. A guy with his CZ and a bipod branding lots as good or bad isn't the same as an ARA benchrest champion making the same calls.

 

[Dannybcc]

Only "some" bad lots shoot "good" in other rifles -- not all bad lots? There are bad lots of .22LR match ammo that don't shoot in any rifles. What's the difference between such bad lots?

Bad is bad. How would one barrel "correct" what others can't?

A little tidbit from our trip to the Lapua test center in Ohio last winter. I asked Shane what they do with the Lapua that really shot poorly in our rifles. Some we didn't finish testing due to after 3-4 shots the group was already larger than our better 10 shot groups. And as you know, they don't grow smaller.

Shane's response was they will shoot good in somebody's gun. We have never had a lot of Lapua, here at the test center, that didn't sell out.

 

[VLNBYR]

Shane's response was they will shoot good in somebody's gun. We have never had a lot of Lapua, here at the test center, that didn't sell out.

The ultimate thread killer statement. At least until someone comes along that has more experience than Shane, has won more National Championships, and has a better testing facility.

Also reveals an interesting view into the psychology of target shooting, ammo testing and internet forum posters.

 

[grauhanen]

This is a pretty bold statement. My opinion is that the frequency of truly "bad" lots is probably equal to the frequency of truly great "killer" lots.

There are five sentences, three of which are questions. It's not clear which of the two statements is especially bold.

There are bad lots of .22LR match ammo that don't shoot in any rifles.
Bad is bad.

Of course there are degrees of "bad", but I would genuinely be surprised if a bad lot was somehow "fixed" by some barrel. I am also genuinely curious how bad ammo would be "cured" by a barrel.

 

[John1945]

There are five sentences, three of which are questions. It's not clear which of the two statements is especially bold.

There are bad lots of .22LR match ammo that don't shoot in any rifles.
Bad is bad.

Of course there are degrees of "bad", but I would genuinely be surprised if a bad lot was somehow "fixed" by some barrel. I am also genuinely curious how bad ammo would be "cured" by a barrel.

Take three rifles to the test center and watch.

 

[dutch14]

Take 3 rifles to the test range and the results are random probability and a too small sample size.

 

[TRSR8]

Gentlemen, let’s remember, seems like several guys here are making a lot of evaluations with factory rifles, certainly OK but not the ideal test bed platform…. Barrels, ignition, optics, etc.
Combine this with many newer shooters claiming any bad shot is a “flier”, it poses the question about what is really labeled as “bad”.Few readily admit to “driver error”.
Makes one wonder.

 

[John1945]

Take 3 rifles to the test range and the results are random probability and a too small sample size.

It's the best, and pretty much the only way, to test and still get a case. Statistical analysis and large sample sizes are a luxury we don't have at the test center. We select the best we can and if it doesn't work out it's easy to sell. You have another way of doing it?

 

[dutch14]

I sympathize with you, John. Your method is better than buying totally blind.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Take three rifles to the test center and watch.

John,
You're wasting your time trying to convince a guy who thinks his rifles are so good any lot that doesn't shoot good for him is a bad lot.
if you notice his posts are always the ammo never the shooter for unsatisfactory results. good thing he doesn't compete here in the USA, or he be kicking everybody's rearend

Lee

 

[VLNBYR]

Back in the day we had a saying that if you couldn't play good golf with Calloway woods and Ping irons then you just couldn't play. In todays benchrest world I will say if you can't compete buying Lapua blind you just can't shoot, you aren't trying very hard, or your problems aren't ammo problems. The root cause of most ammo problems is small sample size which leads to poor decision making. If you shoot a brick of every lot you try you tend towards the conclusion that they're all pretty much alike.

 

[grauhanen]

A little tidbit from our trip to the Lapua test center in Ohio last winter. I asked Shane what they do with the Lapua that really shot poorly in our rifles. Some we didn't finish testing due to after 3-4 shots the group was already larger than our better 10 shot groups. And as you know, they don't grow smaller.

Shane's response was they will shoot good in somebody's gun. We have never had a lot of Lapua, here at the test center, that didn't sell out.

The ultimate thread killer statement. At least until someone comes along that has more experience than Shane, has won more National Championships, and has a better testing facility.

In the current situation where demand far outstrips supply, it would be a surprise if all lots don't get bought by shooters eager to get ammo.

Of course this point alone doesn't prove that ammo that's not good in one rifle will be good in another. The fact remains that if shooters could buy blind from the Lapua testing centers, Mesa and Ohio would still sell all lots, tested or not. (How many would wait months for an appointment only to go home empty handed?)

This makes it seem that to some degree the testing centers can be as much public relations to help promote a product as anything else.

In todays benchrest world I will say if you can't compete buying Lapua blind you just can't shoot, you aren't trying very hard, or your problems aren't ammo problems.

Is it possible the testing facilities are less important than many might have thought?
______________________

It's worth remembering that there's a great deal that gets repeated on rimfire forums, and much of it is apocryphal. Anecdotal reports repeated in one form or another are often used to support claims of all kinds. Nevertheless, they aren't a substitute for reliable testing results.

If any reader/poster is aware of reliable testing results published online or in print that shows one way or another whether good ammo is good ammo in good rifles please direct readers to it.

If ammo that doesn't shoot as well as others in one barrel is "improved" in another barrel perhaps readers would like to know more about how and why that happens.

All open-minded shooters should welcome this information as an alternative to what happens so often with regard to these kind of issues. Evidence rather than personal criticism is always preferable.

 

[shoot4fun]

I bought my 2500 used and was told by the seller it "shoots 26 speed Midas+ best. He didn't provide a lot number, just the "speed". The tuner was set and marked for the 26 speed Midas+ he had shot.
I started the search for Midas+ but to no avail until someone had some 26-speed for sale here. I bought it and went to test it soon after. I wound up moving the tuner slightly to get it shooting tiny 50 yard groups and it has been a very competitive rifle in our local club matches. Now, I have bought 27-speed every time it has become available, not worrying if the lot numbers matched what I had. Have not touched the tuner since the initial test session.
Luck? Maybe but I have used the same method supplying my two Anschutz 1727's I shoot in some 22LR steel matches and they are not telling me I am doing it wrong.

 

[VLNBYR]

Virtually 100% of all the online forum information is anecdotal. Virtually 100% of all "testing" posts are fatally flawed from a mathematical standpoint.
Test centers and their results are not supported by science or math.
Test centers are better than buying blind but not as much as most think.
Things that work one day may or may not work the next day.
Things that work for one person may or may not work for another person.

 

[Dannybcc]

A set of data consisting of only 20 shots will never allow you to be at a 100% confidence level, at making a decision, that one lot of ammo is better than another.
The major benefit of testing at Lapua is that it allows you access to ammo that’s currently hard to find and increases the odds that the lot you select “might” be a good one for your rifle.
With the limited data, you pick the lot you believe shoots best, but statistically many of the better lots shot are nearly equal. With more rounds shot, you could find one of those lots is better than the one you chose.
Great discussion, but at some point, I think we start beating the horse to death.