Loose primer pockets

[coldboreshot]

OR...you could super glue the primers in place like I have seen at a match by someone. Just when you think you've heard or seen it all !

 

[Webster]

OR...you could super glue the primers in place like I have seen at a match by someone. Just when you think you've heard or seen it all !

They have no concept of safety. The Darwin Effect, the weak die and get eliminated from the gene pool.

 

[Rsadams]

They have no concept of safety. The Darrow Effect, the weak die and get eliminated from the gene pool.

If only this was true , lol.... I worked at a shop for awhile and one day noticed that on a fan belt the first instruction was turn the engine off before installing belt.... I knew we were in trouble right then....

 

[coldboreshot]

It's unfortunate, some gene pools have more algae than others.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

I just dumped 100 22-250 cases in the trash. Loose primer pockets..

 

[Richard Coody]

Yep

For me the end of life for brass is loose primer pockets.

If you load near max for that rifle it is just a cost of doing business. Expendables like powder and bullets and even barrels.

If you back off on your loads a little your brass will last a little longer.

Some primers are a little larger in diameter. I pretty much use cci br primers for everything.

Quality brass like lapua will usually last longer.

 

[JFrank]

Just started reloading and hope I’m not too late on this thread. Didn’t want to start a new one when there are so many. After reading this post, I’m not sure I should keep my once fired FC brass. I have both FC gold medal and bulk FC FMJ. The GM was fired in my Rem 700 and the bulk FMJ was purchased for plinking with a mini 14. I’ve decapped, cleaned and removed crimps from 70 cases. I used a Lyman reamer and uniformer. Now, I’m concerned that the pockets may be too large. On some, before reading these posts, the bevel looks very deep. Using a caliper, I was making sure not to exceed .173 diameter. After reading several threads, I went back and measured an unfired Remington case. The pocket was .170 in diameter so I adjusted accordingly. I just got my remington bolt back from Greg Tannel and don’t want to destroy his work because of a loose primer.

.173 should be ok, prefer.170

 

[Bill K]

In reading the post and comments, I thought that it appears many are pushing safety limits to save or use a faulty case.
Loose primers are mostly caused by too much pressure in loads, and also in some cases, like the OP mentions, his were reamed out and it would appear too much, causing primers to seat loose.
Trying to use a faulty case is not worth the risk of loosing or having damage to either the firearm or the person's eyesight. Pitch them and obtain new brass.

 

[Webster]

In reading the post and comments, I thought that it appears many are pushing safety limits to save or use a faulty case.
Loose primers are mostly caused by too much pressure in loads, and also in some cases, like the OP mentions, his were reamed out and it would appear too much, causing primers to seat loose.
Trying to use a faulty case is not worth the risk of loosing or having damage to either the firearm or the person's eyesight. Pitch them and obtain new brass.

If you examine a case the primer pocket matches up with the deep cut for the extractor groove. It would seem that the only way the primer pocket could enlarge is by the brass around the pocket expanding into the extractor groove a few thousandth. This can only happen if you are loading to very high pressures.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Don't understand why anyone would measure pockets with pins. If you know any in a batch are loose they are all bad since they were all shot many times with the same hot load. Back off on the loads and you won't have a problem. I have been reloading since about 1970 and never had a loose primer pocket. A new bolt and will cost more than new brass. Gas leakage is an eye risk. You are damaging your rifles bolt. 223 you can pick up once fired at the range by the bucket full for free. Buy new 22-250 and shoot reasonable loads and you should get at least 20 reloads. You may have to anneal to get a lot of reloads. A torch works fine.

They measure pockets with pins Or with a tool such as Ballistic Tool's Swage Gage (https://ballistictools.com/store/swage-gage-small-primer-pocket) largely because Lapua .223 Rem brass costs $600 to $700 per case. For those running heavy (90+ gr) .224" bullets in F-TR, it comes with the territory, if they want to be competitive using a .223 Rem against .308 shooters with 200+ gr bullets. After each firing, I simply cull the cases that don't pass the Go/No Go gauge test. The remaining cases are absolutely fine for at least another firing.

If you examine a case the primer pocket matches up with the deep cut for the extractor groove. It would seem that the only way the primer pocket could enlarge is by the brass around the pocket expanding into the extractor groove a few thousandth. This can only happen if you are loading to very high pressures.

It does not take "very high pressures" to render .223 Rem primer pockets loose. SAAMI max for this cartridge is 55K psi, which is not all that high relative to other centerfire cartridges used in F-Class. It only takes 1-2K psi over SAAMI max to kill the primer pockets in 1 to 3 firings. Over max...yes, but not exactly what I would call grossly exceeding max pressure. You are correct in that the primer pockets can expand into the extractor groove. It is sometimes possible to observe a case that can no longer be rotated 360 degrees in a shell holder due to having a flat spot in the bottom of the extractor groove. However, the extractor grooves are not cut to tight tolerances with regard to the shell holder and the primer pockets are usually toasted long before any extractor groove anomalies become noticeable.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Don't understand why anyone would measure pockets with pins. If you know any in a batch are loose they are all bad since they were all shot many times with the same hot load. Back off on the loads and you won't have a problem. I have been reloading since about 1970 and never had a loose primer pocket. A new bolt and will cost more than new brass. Gas leakage is an eye risk. You are damaging your rifles bolt. 223 you can pick up once fired at the range by the bucket full for free. Buy new 22-250 and shoot reasonable loads and you should get at least 20 reloads. You may have to anneal to get a lot of reloads. A torch works fine.

The pin gauges I have vary in diameter from primer diameter to .0005 and .001 under primer diameter.

If the larger pin gauge fits in the primer pocket the case goes in the scrap brass bucket. And this check is done "BEFORE" anything is done to the case. I do this because I sized and prepped hundreds of Federal .223/5.56 cases only to find out they had oversized primer pockets.

I was given three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 brass fired by our local police department. And many of the Federal cases had over sized primer pockets after the first firing.

The Federal cases have a thinner flash hole web and softer brass than Lake City 5.56 cases. The thicker flash hole web adds strength to the base and added reloading life to the primer pockets.

I learned the hard way about Federal .223/5.56 cases and found another way to check the cases below. You use a 2 inch rod with a cup shaped end to fit over any flash hole burs. And measure the flash hole web thickness and if the case is worth reloading.

NOTE, not all Federal cases are bad, the problem cases I had were from 2009 to 2010. And I'm not sure when Federal got the bad rap for "soft brass" no matter what caliber. And I do not think the problem was just soft brass but flash hole web thickness played a big part in the problem. Also there is a good bit of advice and stickies at ar15.com on problem brass and how to check your cases.

Bottom line, after prepping a five gallon bucket of once fired Federal cases and having sore fingers from removing the primer crimps by hand I learned my lesson. I now only buy once fired Lake City brass because the brass is harder and the flash hole webs are thicker. And the quality and uniformity of these Lake City cases are better than the average American made .223 case. And I'm not going to shoot Lapua cases in a AR15 that throws perfectly good brass away and makes you go look for them.

 

[Richard Coody]

The pin gauges I have vary in diameter from primer diameter to .0005 and .001 under primer diameter.

If the larger pin gauge fits in the primer pocket the case goes in the scrap brass bucket. And this check is done "BEFORE" anything is done to the case. I do this because I sized and prepped hundreds of Federal .223/5.56 cases only to find out they had oversized primer pockets.



I was given three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 brass fired by our local police department. And many of the Federal cases had over sized primer pockets after the first firing.

The Federal cases have a thinner flash hole web and softer brass than Lake City 5.56 cases. The thicker flash hole web adds strength to the base and added reloading life to the primer pockets.

I learned the hard way about Federal .223/5.56 cases and found another way to check the cases below. You use a 2 inch rod with a cup shaped end to fit over any flash hole burs. And measure the flash hole web thickness and if the case is worth reloading.

NOTE, not all Federal cases are bad, the problem cases I had were from 2009 to 2010. And I'm not sure when Federal got the bad rap for "soft brass" no matter what caliber. And I do not think the problem was just soft brass but flash hole web thickness played a big part in the problem. Also there is a good bit of advice and stickies at ar15.com on problem brass and how to check your cases.

Bottom line, after prepping a five gallon bucket of once fired Federal cases and having sore fingers from removing the primer crimps by hand I learned my lesson. I now only buy once fired Lake City brass because the brass is harder and the flash hole webs are thicker. And the quality and uniformity of these Lake City cases are better than the average American made .223 case. And I'm not going to shoot Lapua cases in a AR15 that throws perfectly good brass away and makes you go look for them.

A brass catcher will solve that little issue. Wish everyone on the line used one. Hot brass down the collar really ticks me off.

I quit messing with precision AR's long ago. Carefully prepared brass with bent necks and mangled rims just .......

Now i don't reload for any of my ar's. Ammo is so cheap. Even with my grendel pig gun i use store bought. Then i just don't care where that brass winds up. That hornady ammo shoots plenty accurate enough for pig extermination.

 

[Uncle Ed]

First you say you don't understand why anyone would use pin gauges.

And then you say you don't reload reload for your AR15s.

So let me be very clear, I reload and I check my primer pockets so my bolt face and my sons bolt face will not look like the one below.

The person who posted the photo below said he wasn't worried about loose primer pockets and would just change the bolt when it got bad enough.

 

[Webster]

The pin gauges I have vary in diameter from primer diameter to .0005 and .001 under primer diameter.

If the larger pin gauge fits in the primer pocket the case goes in the scrap brass bucket. And this check is done "BEFORE" anything is done to the case. I do this because I sized and prepped hundreds of Federal .223/5.56 cases only to find out they had oversized primer pockets.

I was given three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 brass fired by our local police department. And many of the Federal cases had over sized primer pockets after the first firing.

The Federal cases have a thinner flash hole web and softer brass than Lake City 5.56 cases. The thicker flash hole web adds strength to the base and added reloading life to the primer pockets. For the last 10 years I have been shooting only Lapua 6BR brass.

I learned the hard way about Federal .223/5.56 cases and found another way to check the cases below. You use a 2 inch rod with a cup shaped end to fit over any flash hole burs. And measure the flash hole web thickness and if the case is worth reloading.

NOTE, not all Federal cases are bad, the problem cases I had were from 2009 to 2010. And I'm not sure when Federal got the bad rap for "soft brass" no matter what caliber. And I do not think the problem was just soft brass but flash hole web thickness played a big part in the problem. Also there is a good bit of advice and stickies at ar15.com on problem brass and how to check your cases.

Bottom line, after prepping a five gallon bucket of once fired Federal cases and having sore fingers from removing the primer crimps by hand I learned my lesson. I now only buy once fired Lake City brass because the brass is harder and the flash hole webs are thicker. And the quality and uniformity of these Lake City cases are better than the average American made .223 case. And I'm not going to shoot Lapua cases in a AR15 that throws perfectly good brass away and makes you go look for them.

Great info. I said I would never buy pins to check primer pockets because in 49 years I have never had a loose primer or gas cutting on a bolt face or signs of gas leakage around a primer edge. After reading some of the above post if I ever had a sign of a bad primer pocket I would buy the pins. Remember the pockets are swaged into place they are not machined. Again you posted great inf. I like real data and not opinions. I have been shooting Lapua 6BR brass for the last ten years. My loads are not pushing the limits.

 

[Richard Coody]

First you say you don't understand why anyone would use pin gauges.

And then you say you don't reload reload for your AR15s.

So let me be very clear, I reload and I check my primer pockets so my bolt face and my sons bolt face will not look like the one below.

The person who posted the photo below said he wasn't worried about loose primer pockets and would just change the bolt when it got bad enough.

I never said anything about a pin gauge

And i don't reload.for AR's any more because ammo is cheap and.AR's are hard on brass. I have been there and done that. Lots easier to get accuracy from a bolt.gun and my carefully prepared brass last.

Not to say you can't build an accurate one now. Here is a typical 5 shot.group from one i used to own. Now this is a 6mm ar turbo 40. Not a .223.

 

[shortthroat]

Webster, try shooting 7-RSAUM. Even some factory ammo from Remington cannot be loaded more than once or twice. Some new Remington brass fails after even one firing. Maybe 10% of the brass loosens after one firing. This is in AR-10 which does work the brass fairly hard, but primer pockets tend to loosen quickly. I have used both Winchester large magnum and more usually I prefer Federal 215GM primers but it makes no difference. Nosler brass or the best, Lapua is the way to go. These load four of five times with no problems. Evidently there is a reason Remington brass in this caliber is cheap!

 

[jackson1]

Have read that shooting a lower pressure load for the first 2 firings will extend pocket life. Have not tried it. Have a 17 Remington load that is accurate for me. Brass life is about 4 firings. Like said above, "it is just the cost of doing business". Have not pieced many primers in my life, but I have done it. As a rule I don't attempt to push the envelope, and do not recommend it to anyone, but there are times in life where you have to find out what you don't know.