Loose primer pockets

[seidersjoden]

I have a 30-378, after about 3 shots the primer pockets get loose to the point where when I seat them theres little to no resistance with my hand priming tool.

To me a loose pocket doesn't seem too dangerous with the bolt face pushing the primer flush with the seat, but I know it is, just want some explanation as to why it dangerous.

What qualifies as loose primer pocket?

What are the dangers?

Is there gas leakage around the primer with loose pockets and does it affect accuracy?

Thanks,
Joden

 

[243winxb]

Re: Loose primer pockets = Damage to Bolt face

http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/library/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Primer%20Gas%20Leak Some actions may let hot gas/brass come back thru the bolt. The 1903 springfield comes to mind. A Savage may loose the extractor, depending on the size of the leak. A loose pocket is hard to describe, but if you can seat the primer thats sitting on the bench top and pushing the case onto the primer by hand, its way to loose.

 

[seidersjoden]

Great, thanks for the tip.

-Joden

 

[ebb]

One of the 1000yd shooters at benchrest central says he wouldn't give up his prepped brass when the pockets got loose, he would just super glue the primers in. I don't know if I want to try it, but I have 7 RUM brass that some of it has loose primers.

 

[seidersjoden]

That seems like a lot of work for possibly unsafe conditions.

-Joden

 

[searcher]

Take a good look at that bolt another posted. I have a couple worse than that from my "old days" of pushing the envelope and loose primers. If no safety issue ever became of it - just figure it probably cut the value of your rifle down a good chunk.

 

[Old Navy]

If there is no sign of leaking I keep shooting. Later! Frank

 

[amlevin]

RW Hart Case Saver Swaging tool.

$60 and in stock at Midway. At the price of 30-378 cases this is a bargain.

PS: Hammer is not included 8)

 

[daniel brothers]

I've been working up a load in my 22-243 AI, with Lapua brass and have about 30 cases that primers are really loose. I saw this thread and thought...wow... there could be some answers here that could save the brass instead of tossing them. But Heck... these are only a buck a piece... but I like the idea of the swagger.

Ps... I just read the reviews at Midway...they are mostly bad...

Hmmm.... I'll just buy new brass

 

[jsthntn247]

Re: Loose primer pockets = Damage to Bolt face

http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/library/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Primer%20Gas%20Leak Some actions may let hot gas/brass come back thru the bolt. The 1903 springfield comes to mind. A Savage may loose the extractor, depending on the size of the leak. A loose pocket is hard to describe, but if you can seat the primer thats sitting on the bench top and pushing the case onto the primer by hand, its way to loose.

Is there any way to fix the bolt face once you get a crater hole in it?

 

[brian427cobra]

When the primer pocket is loose, toss the brass, it's not worth the headaches, if the brass is really expensive well that's the price you pay

 

[searcher]

A gunsmith friend said no problem refacing bolt, pulling barrel and setting it back a smidge to gain proper headspace again. Just costs $$$

 

[VaniB]

RW Hart Case Saver Swaging tool.

$60 and in stock at Midway. At the price of 30-378 cases this is a bargain.

PS: Hammer is not included 8)

I'm looking at this tool, and I'm trying to figure out how it works. Ummm.....I'm guessing that the punch rod is slipped into the primer pocket, and when you hammer down on the punch it causes the primer pocket brass to flow and move tight around the punch, producing a tighter primer pocket. (??) I wonder if this causes slight distortion to the flash hole. (??) I also wonder how many more firings you get before a loose primer pocket returns. (??)

I already went to the Midway sight, but there was no description about how it works. The only thing that I found was two out of three feedback had less then stellar reviews on this tool.

 

[seidersjoden]

RW Hart Case Saver Swaging tool.

$60 and in stock at Midway. At the price of 30-378 cases this is a bargain.

PS: Hammer is not included 8)

What does that do? make primer pockets tighter, on youtube it shows the tool removing a crimp but not adding a crimp?

-Joden

 

[XTR]

The other problem(s) is that the loose primers will blow out and fall into the action when you open the bolt, then if you are lucky you see it and you pull it out, if not then either then anvil falls out of the cup into the trigger mechanism and disables the rifle, or the anvil and or the cup get into the bolt lug recesses in the chamber and you wedge it in when you try to close the bolt and you disable the rifle, and there is always that disconcerting puff of smoke from your action that isn't supposed to be there if you're not shooting a percussion cap rifle.

Toss it

 

[bigedp51]

Joden

Forget the Hart tool they do not have a good reputation, if your not loading too hot then you have soft brass or cases not formed correctly in the web area. The thickness of the web area at the flash hole adds strength to the base of the case, if the area is too thin the cases will stretch after a few reloads.

Below is a simple Lee depriming tool I use to test a freshly primed .223/5.56 cases, if the primer moves with just finger pressure the case goes into the scrap brass bucket.

I also use pin gauges to precheck the primer pockets before seating new primers.

Federal brass was noted for soft brass for a few years and some cases have thin web areas, a 5.56 AR15 chamber is .002 larger in diameter and some Federal cases would have oversized primer pockets after the first firing. I used a two inch rod and a vernier caliper to measure web thickness to compare cases.

Below Lake City cases on the far right and left and a Federal case in the center with a much thinner web and problematic primer pockets.

Lake City and commercial contract 5.56 ammunition must be harder in the base and has a thicker web area than some .223 cases and hold up to more reloads because of their milspec manufacturing requirements.

Both of the ideas above came from the moderator and very experienced reloader at a AR15 reloading forum and work very well.

You can also measure the diameter of the primers you are using and see if you can find a brand with a larger diameter.

Not all brass is created equal and much depends on the vendor selling the brass and the manufacturing process of the cases, the primer and quality control. I know .223/5.56 cases are not 30-378 cases but I had to throw out over 30 cases due to over sized primer pockets on once fired .223/5.56 cases the last time I reloaded for my AR15 rifles.

Below is my scrap brass bucket with cases with over sized primer pockets and its a shame but far too much of the quality control is governed by the stock holders and their dividends.

The majority of the cases below are "ONCE" fired .223/5.56 cases made by Federal, but the bucket also contains every brand of case you can think of.

The person who posted the photo below told the forum it was cheaper to replace the bolt than worry about loose primer pockets. I just shook my head at the stupidity of this statement and started inspecting my primer pockets closely and setting a simple pass-fail test system.

 

[amlevin]

I'm looking at this tool, and I'm trying to figure out how it works. Ummm.....I'm guessing that the punch rod is slipped into the primer pocket, and when you hammer down on the punch it causes the primer pocket brass to flow and move tight around the punch, producing a tighter primer pocket. (??) I wonder if this causes slight distortion to the flash hole. (??) I also wonder how many more firings you get before a loose primer pocket returns. (??)

You are correct that the tool moves brass back into the primer pocket area. If you use this tool in conjunction with a primer pocket reamer that makes the walls parallel (like the lyman hand tool) you can get some very usable brass for several more firings depending on the load. I'd like to see a tool like this adapted to a hydraulic press that would rely less on impact from a hammer and give more predictable results with each case. Unfortunately that would probably require something in the realm of 10T or more.

A far more useful tool with expensive brass (like the 30-378) than on other calibers where the brass is a buck or less per piece.

 

[artbosco]

I have a 30-378, after about 3 shots the primer pockets get loose to the point where when I seat them there's little to no resistance with my hand priming tool.

.30-378 Wby. Mag.
"Initially a wildcat cartridge developed by Roy Weatherby in 1959 at the request of the United States Army. This white-hot cartridge is based on the .378 necked down to .30 caliber and packed with powder. Originally billed as the world’s fastest .30 caliber cartridge, it will push a .30 caliber bullet more than 3,500 feet per second. Reintroduced as a Weatherby® production cartridge in 1996."

Nothing lasts forever. When you're shooting a White-Hot cartridge something has give somewhere. It looks the primer pocket is the area most susceptible to pressure in this case.

Call the ballisticians at Weatherby. 3 reloads may be the norm, or you may have gotten lucky to get even that many.

Toss the ones with loose pockets and move on. Consider it the cost of shooting a 30 caliber speed demon.

 

[amlevin]

Toss the ones with loose pockets and move on. Consider it the cost of shooting a 30 caliber speed demon.

Yes indeed. The cost of shooting a rifle that uses brass costing $3.50-$4.50 per piece. One 30-378 case equals about 5-6 Lapua .308 win cases. :

I have a friend that has owned his 30-378 for over 10 years now and has less than 30 rounds through it. He apparently overlooked the cost of ammo when he purchased it.

 

[jlow]

I’ve looked at that Hart tool and it is an interesting idea.

Basically you put the base down, insert the rod, put in a case upside down into the rod. Insert the piece (will call this the tapper) with the decapping rod looking end and tap down with a hammer.

The idea is the rod serves as the base to support the inside of the primer hole entry point. The decapping rod goes through the primer hole and inserts into a hole in the rod. When you hammer on the tapper, the part that is bigger than the primer pocket will push down on the head of the case causing the top edge of the primer pocket to mush down and this balloons out part of the side of the primer pocket.

The weakness of the system is that the tapper is made of soft metal and so it really is not up to the job for long. All it needs is for someone to make a replacement part that is made of stronger stuff and you will have a good working system.