Let's talk match brass management

[MikeMcCasland]

Before diving into this, lets get a couple of key points out of the way.

• Lapua Brass - Same Lot - Neck Turned before it's fired.
• Will be shot across two identical actions, multiple barrels, cut off the same reamer; headspace within +/- .001"
• Load will be same bullet, and within .2gr across barrels.
• Annealing every firing.
• I don't adjust my dies for the different barrels; I'm usually bumping ~.003. I prefer more clearance than less.

Historically when I've purchased brass, I would "assign" it to a barrel and a specific ammo box; usually like ~300 pieces at a time per barrel. During the first few firings, this works out well, and is generally pretty easy to manage.

Over time though, and as I shoot higher round count matches, I inevitably end up with 100rd boxes with different numbers of firings on them; and even within those 100 round boxes I'll wind up with leftover rounds from a match further complicating "times fired" tracking. (i.e. box 1 has 5 firings, box 2 has 9 firings, and box 3 has 2 firings. Within those boxes, you'll have leftovers that don't always get shot next match etc.).

To further compound the issue, if you're assigning ~300-400 pieces of brass to a barrel, you're only going to get 5-8 firings max before that barrel is shot out. The brass has a lot more life left in it, so inevitably I'll end up "rolling it over" to whatever new barrel gets screwed on.

There are other unmentioned factors that create more headaches, but I think you get the idea. Micro-managing brass in 100 round batches always starts out fairly easy, but over time becomes a nightmare in terms of consistency, and I feel like it's cost me a couple of points at times.

All of that said, I'm in the process of prepping 1,000 new pieces, and I'm going to get smarter about how I do this. I'm thinking about managing that entire pool of 1,000 cases vs. trying to manage 10 different boxes individually. (i.e. keep 4 bins N Fired/Sized, Fired, N+1 Fired/Sized, Culls)

There are obviously different challenges that come with this, but I feel like it would probably be easier to manage as one large pool vs. individual batches.

I know there are a few of you higher volume shooters out there (you know who you are), and I'm confident ya'll have run into the same predicament, and I suspect ya'll might have some insight.

Question:
Any thoughts or general feedback regarding the management of brass as one large pool across multiple different barrels vs. doing it in smaller batches?

 

[jr600yd]

I found trying to manage say 3-400 pieces of brass in say 70rd lots (around 10 sighters and 60 rds for score) time consuming, frustrating and in general a PITA. Now I load new brass and shoot it, clean them, place in plastic bag and move on to the next group and repeat. Easy to keep track of times fired.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I've always kept specific brass preps for each rifle; typically 300-400 pcs each. That's enough that you can shoot for a while after doing a prep, but that doing it all in a single prep isn't completely overwhelming. I don't like doing brass prep, so repeatedly prepping 100 cases or so isn't for me. I de-cap after firing, then clean in the tumbler when I have accumulated 100-125 cases. I have a Giraud annealer and trimmer, which helps throughput somewhat, but the real limitation in terms of time are the cleaning and resizing steps. Not sure how to get around that.

One consideration regarding using the the same brass across across two rifles and multiple barrels is that even if they're all cut with the exact same reamer, there can still be differences. Are the types of very subtle differences between brass fired in different chambers cut with the exact same reamer enough that you could actually shoot the difference? My guess is probably not with an F-Class rifle. Nonetheless, I've never tried exactly what you're suggesting. A few times in the past when a rifle was re-barreled and I wanted to start with virgin brass, but still had a set of brass from the previous barrel with only a few firings on it, I would dedicate the older [fire-formed] brass to a different rifle from that point on. That typically meant a rifle used more often as a practice gun, for example, rather than one of my main competition rifles. That way, if there were any subtle differences in the brass, it wouldn't really matter too much. In any event, if you come up with a way to streamline the process without affecting the quality of the brass prep, that will be very interesting. Because for me the rate-limiting steps to be cleaning and re-sizing, I'm not sure any major expediting of those processes are possible, but it will certainly be interesting to hear other's ideas on the topic.

 

[davidjoe]

I could see guys that do versions of this “high volume” loading being reluctant to raise their hand here, but here goes .

I too got away from strictly pairing boxes of ammo to a particular barrel. When barrels are chambered from the same reamer, sometimes consecutively in sets of four or eight identical blanks, there really isn’t enough variance between them, if there is any at all, for me to look for or pursue a difference on paper, using slightly different charge weights for each one, when many are all running at the same time, all the time. Hence, they share ammo and I’ll keep preloaded, several hundred of boxes of 100. (No, this practice isn’t suppressing my scores, bad wind calls do that )

I’d have two reservations on brass lots bigger than 100 though. I am a big believer in all the rounds in a box closing with exactly the same feel with a given gun. While that might be largely addressed by FL resizing, I only do that as needed and the other reservation, uniform primer pocket feel, really can’t be easily addressed. By keeping rounds together in a 100 box, they will get cleaned together, all be the same size, age together, and will be demoted to club use together as their pockets loosen.

I do think that drawing from 1,000 and eventually culling as you go, could work but for me it would be hard to shoot different round-count brass within the same string as I’d be preoccupied with that, and if it was all to be the same round count, then might as well put 10 boxes in rotation.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I've always kept specific brass preps for each rifle; typically 300-400 pcs each. That's enough that you can shoot for a while after doing a prep, but that doing it all in a single prep isn't completely overwhelming. I don't like doing brass prep, so repeatedly prepping 100 cases or so isn't for me. I de-cap after firing, then clean in the tumbler when I have accumulated 100-125 cases. I have a Giraud annealer and trimmer, which helps throughput somewhat, but the real limitation in terms of time are the cleaning and resizing steps. Not sure how to get around that.

One consideration regarding using the the same brass across across two rifles and multiple barrels is that even if they're all cut with the exact same reamer, there can still be differences. Are the types of very subtle differences between brass fired in different chambers cut with the exact same reamer enough that you could actually shoot the difference? My guess is probably not with an F-Class rifle. Nonetheless, I've never tried exactly what you're suggesting. A few times in the past when a rifle was re-barreled and I wanted to start with virgin brass, but still had a set of brass from the previous barrel with only a few firings on it, I would dedicate the older [fire-formed] brass to a different rifle from that point on. That typically meant a rifle used more often as a practice gun, for example, rather than one of my main competition rifles. That way, if there were any subtle differences in the brass, it wouldn't really matter too much. In any event, if you come up with a way to streamline the process without affecting the quality of the brass prep, that will be very interesting. Because for me the rate-limiting steps to be cleaning and re-sizing, I'm not sure any major expediting of those processes are possible, but it will certainly be interesting to hear other's ideas on the topic.

Appreciate the reply.

I'm not so much looking to speed things up as I am looking to extract better value from the brass investment, and to obtain better consistency in aggregate. Approaching this from a process control, LEAN or "Six Sigma" perspective (yeah, it makes me cringe too), there are significantly smarter ways to do this.

As it stands now, I'm shooting ~800 cases that are "assigned" to two different actions. Both of those actions have seen different barrels, and it's admittedly in complete disarray from a "best practices"/ case management perspective. Some boxes probably have ~8-9 firings, while others may have 20; I've really done a poor job of tracking it. Moreover, even within the 100 round boxes the "leftovers" from each match really screw "times fired" segregation. At least in 1k shooting, I can actually tell the difference on target.

I do agree with the differences in the chambering jobs, even if off the same reamer. That said, I haven't touched my sizing die in the past ~5-6 barrels, and when I set it up it was bumping .003 on that chamber. (i.e. I'm not feeling any resistance to chamber on anything).

Ideally the way this will work is having 1,000 pieces of brass, and 4 "totes".

Tote 1 for X-times fired, prepped and ready to go.
Tote 2 for fired Y-times fired.
Tote 3 for Y-times fired, prepped and ready to go.
Tote 4 for culls over time...stuff to blast in hunting guns etc.

This way I only have to really worry about ~2-4 100 round ammo boxes, and I don't have track anything at that level.

I know the culls seems excessive, but sometimes where I shoot the humidity is so bad I've ruined brass because of moisture. My last 1k match had a lot of clickers as a result lol. Figured it would be smart to cull those.

That's the plan anyway.

Edit: I do have a barrel on my "main" gun that is at 2,000 rounds. It still shoots well enough, but it's starting to fall off on Xs. Hoping to "fireform" as much of this as I can with this tube, and then roll into my next barrel with once fired stuff.

 

[Dub]

interesting topic. Following

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I could see guys that do versions of this “high volume” loading being reluctant to raise their hand here, but here goes .

I too got away from strictly pairing boxes of ammo to a particular barrel. When barrels are chambered from the same reamer, sometimes consecutively in sets of four or eight identical blanks, there really isn’t enough variance between them, if there is any at all, for me to look for or pursue a difference on paper, using slightly different charge weights for each one, when many are all running at the same time, all the time. Hence, they share ammo and I’ll keep preloaded, several hundred of boxes of 100. (No, this practice isn’t suppressing my scores, bad wind calls do that )

I’d have two reservations on brass lots bigger than 100 though. I am a big believer in all the rounds in a box closing with exactly the same feel with a given gun. While that might be largely addressed by FL resizing, I only do that as needed and the other reservation, uniform primer pocket feel, really can’t be easily addressed. By keeping rounds together in a 100 box, they will get cleaned together, all be the same size, age together, and will be demoted to club use together as their pockets loosen.

I do think that drawing from 1,000 and eventually culling as you go, could work but for me it would be hard to shoot different round-count brass within the same string as I’d be preoccupied with that, and if if was all to be the same round count, then might as well put 10 boxes in rotation.

I strongly suspect you're right about folks being a little hesitant to share on this topic. That said, I can think of 4-5 well know F-Open guys who have talked extensively about their practices on the YouTubes, so figured a thread wouldn't hurt. I'm just a harmless, no-talent TR guy anyway.

As far as the primer pockets, that's something I'm starting on this batch. Getting a 21st uniformer, and an accuracy one gauge. I've been playing with primer depth, and there's something to it....

The other thing to call out here is that I'm not planning on shooting both guns evenly. Typically what I'll do is run a primary gun, and then use the "backup" to dev a barrel. Whenever the primary barrel gets shot out, I screw on a new tube and the the backup gun becomes the primary. Both guns are identical aside from paint schemes.

Lastly, that rack of ammo boxes....

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Just thinking through this...I guess you'd need to be cognizant of is springback, so probably wouldn't want to size a bunch of brass in bulk (assuming you could avoid it).

I suppose you'd want it setup like this:
Bin 1.) X-times fired brass
Bin 2.) X-times fired brass cleaned/annealed.
Pull brass from Bin 2, and size/load/shoot as needed, then deposit in Bin3.
Bin 3.) Y-times fired brass
Bin 4.) Y-times fired brass cleaned/annealed.
Bin 5.) Culls

 

[dskogman]

I’ll bite. I have batches of 400/500. Newer batches for big matches all shot with the same reamer. Middle for local matches. Older ones for testing. Each batch has two plastic tubs, one for prepped and one for fired.

 

[XTR]

I have 2 lots of 308 Lapua. One lot has 9 of 10 firings on it, and it is not turned. The other has 4 or 5, and I got bored with 2 feet of snow on the ground 2 yrs ago and turned it all when it was new.
Both lots are over 500 cases, that’s the extent of my sorting.

 

[jr600yd]

I have 6BRX brass I have NO idea how many times it’s been shot!

 

[mikecr]

I use best 50 cases per barrel, and when I change barrels I'm still using those 50, and when I change barrels again, I'll still be using those 50.
I get my money's worth out of brass, per the plan.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I have 6BRX brass I have NO idea how many times it’s been shot!

That's part of my problem, lol!

I've noticed my necks thinning out over time, and as a result the the neck tension changes. That isn't a problem until it becomes a problem, hah. The simple answer is to drop a bushing, but when you don't sort by times fired, and you have variation within a box of 100, it becomes more difficult to solve.

That said, I've shot good scores with some pretty terrible brass management practices. I don't think it's the difference between a 580 and a 598, but I do think in calm winds/match 1 I've been able to tell a difference.

I use best 50 cases per barrel, and when I change barrels I'm still using those 50, and when I change barrels again, I'll still be using those 50.
I get my money's worth out of brass, per the plan.

How do you finish a match?

 

[LVLAaron]

I buy 500 at a time. I sort them into lots of 75 pieces. (10 sighters, 60 for a match, with a few left over for e-target problems, etc, or for foulers on my next trip)

My chambers are all incredibly close to each other... so I don't worry about it too much past that.

 

[Tod Hendricks]

I run lots of 1,000 pieces. 2 to 3 separate lots in the rotation at anytime. All get fired in any of the barrels. I keep the number firings the the same through the life of each lot. Don’t let those left over rounds sit around, you can get out of order quickly. Use em for foulers or just blow em off in the fireformer barrel.

I’ll take loaded rounds with a different number of firings to a match, but won’t shoot them at the same time.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I shoot NRA XTC, mid range, and long range with a pair of T2Ks in 6XC. I have 3 lots of cases. 2 started with 1000 pcs and 1 with 500. I keep each lot together loaded with the same thing in that lot. One lot for 200 yards, the small lot for 300, and the other large lot for 600 - 1000. When the whole lot has been fired it is cleaned, annealed, sized, and loaded. I retire a barrel from competition at 1500 rounds. So the brass I have will last for many barrels. I like to load all winter so I can shoot all summer. After 10 loadings the brass gets recycled.

 

[Jdne5b]

Following. My process is similar, although currently only for 1 gun at this time. I'm getting ready to incorporate a 2nd .308 into the process.

Fired brass goes into acro bins labeled :

"5x Barrel xxyz", then add "annealed" to the label when that prep is done. I size and trim right before loading so will note that on specific bins if they will sit in that state longer than overnight just so I don't lose track.

Ammo box gets labeled "5x, will be 6x". No rounds go into an Ammo box unless they are loaded. That way I know if a fired round is in the Ammo box then it is the 6x fired. After the match, take the empties out, place into bin labeled "6x xxyz". Depending on what's coming up match wise, leftovers get colored with sharpie and shot as fouler for the next big match or along side fresh ammo (same firing) if it's a club match. They also stay in the proper # firing box.

It only gets complicated when nearing the end of the 500pcs batch and I load all remaining 5x and need to dip into the 6x to load for a larger match. If I have to mix # of firings for a longer match, I don't mix them in the same box, and hopefully can find a clean break I between strings without too many leftovers.

Once my second gun\barrel has made the rotation, I will probably just add some more bins and run two lots of 500.

 

[INTJ]

I like to have 2-300 of the same sort. LR BR. Typically, I'll have two sorts of about 100 each. Often I do find myself with half of one sort and half on another. I make sure I keep record rounds in the same sort. I'll use the other for sighters as well as for my ladder test at the range the day before that match.

I also make sure that the record rounds are all the same firing. That said, I anneal after every firing and that goes a long way to maintain consistency. A case fired 7 times vs a case fired 8 times will have a difference in hardness if they are not annealed.

 

[Sandstorm]

Yup...figured as much...were all in the same boat...lol
And in... various state's of disarray....but hey they shoot plenty good still.

 

[avidflyer]

I could see guys that do versions of this “high volume” loading being reluctant to raise their hand here, but here goes .

I too got away from strictly pairing boxes of ammo to a particular barrel. When barrels are chambered from the same reamer, sometimes consecutively in sets of four or eight identical blanks, there really isn’t enough variance between them, if there is any at all, for me to look for or pursue a difference on paper, using slightly different charge weights for each one, when many are all running at the same time, all the time. Hence, they share ammo and I’ll keep preloaded, several hundred of boxes of 100. (No, this practice isn’t suppressing my scores, bad wind calls do that )

I’d have two reservations on brass lots bigger than 100 though. I am a big believer in all the rounds in a box closing with exactly the same feel with a given gun. While that might be largely addressed by FL resizing, I only do that as needed and the other reservation, uniform primer pocket feel, really can’t be easily addressed. By keeping rounds together in a 100 box, they will get cleaned together, all be the same size, age together, and will be demoted to club use together as their pockets loosen.

I do think that drawing from 1,000 and eventually culling as you go, could work but for me it would be hard to shoot different round-count brass within the same string as I’d be preoccupied with that, and if it was all to be the same round count, then might as well put 10 boxes in rotation.

I feel really good about myself seeing that pic…My shelf is about half of that and I was told I have a problem….