Let's talk Lapua Brass
- Thread starter sigma2chi
- Start date
Another thing that affects actual neck tension...and one which I rarely see mentioned..is NECK THICKNESS. If your necks are turned thin it takes smaller bushings to acheave the same "tension" as it does with thicker brass. I used to have all of my 300 wby's chambered with Clay Spencers .330 reamer. I had to typically run bushings up to 8 thou smaller. My current reamer is .334 and need half of that. Factory "thick" brass is usually 2 thou.
Now granted, my only "measurement" ...for lack of a better word....is the force it takes to seat a bullet. After thousands of rounds each with the .330 chamber, the 334 chamber, and factory chambers...I feel I have a pretty good handle on it.
BUT....when it comes to neck tension, I ALWAYS let the gun decide!! From "so loose the bullet can be pulled by hand" to 'HOLY S&!T, THATS TIGHT"!!
As far as the Primer pockets.....it is a big old mystery to me. I had a dasher..my first, that would loosen the primers when fire forming. Light or heavy powder charge didn't matter. The "match loads" were 3 grains less than anyone elses, and THAT blew primers from time to time. On the other hand , I have some cheap winchester brass for my 6.5 WSSM brass. I have beat the living crap out of that brass for 12 firings. Just like new.
Tod
Now granted, my only "measurement" ...for lack of a better word....is the force it takes to seat a bullet. After thousands of rounds each with the .330 chamber, the 334 chamber, and factory chambers...I feel I have a pretty good handle on it.
BUT....when it comes to neck tension, I ALWAYS let the gun decide!! From "so loose the bullet can be pulled by hand" to 'HOLY S&!T, THATS TIGHT"!!
As far as the Primer pockets.....it is a big old mystery to me. I had a dasher..my first, that would loosen the primers when fire forming. Light or heavy powder charge didn't matter. The "match loads" were 3 grains less than anyone elses, and THAT blew primers from time to time. On the other hand , I have some cheap winchester brass for my 6.5 WSSM brass. I have beat the living crap out of that brass for 12 firings. Just like new.
Tod
It's impossible to harden brass by quenching. It does not heat treat like carbon steel alloys. It's difficult to relate how much you annealed the brass to what size washer you need to get a certain tension. It isn't simply how many thousandths between o.d. diameter with and without the bullet. The dimension change doesn't account for the hardness of the brass. If you way over annealed to a dead soft condition, going to a sightly smaller washer probably wouldn't restore tension. Unfortunately there isn't a good way to measure tension. Some guys squeeze the neck with pliers to see if the neck seems to soft. Some mount a dial pressure gauge on the seating die. I would try reducing the annealing time or try a washer 1 to 2 thou less and see what happens. 700F is in the stress relief temperature range. You shounldn't be annealing at about 10 seconds at 700F.
Attached is a chart of time VS hardness on 6BR Lapua blue box case necks. I heat treated the cartridge necks in a laboratory grade furnace that was accurate to plus/minus 2 degrees F.
Attached is a chart of time VS hardness on 6BR Lapua blue box case necks. I heat treated the cartridge necks in a laboratory grade furnace that was accurate to plus/minus 2 degrees F.
Couple of suggestions
Has the neck tension gone away on all cases? If so did it dramatically reduce after annealing i.e. where the first 4-5 firings before annealing ok? If this is true then I think you are over annealing the neck, which is possible without impacting the base depending on the number of flames, position of the flame and gas type.
If it is only some cases and you are sizing down ~.001 - .0015 then you may have struck some cases that have necks on the thin side. This combined with a degree of spring back and possibly neck thinning and those specific cases will exhibit "virtually no neck tension" despite being treated in the same manner and fired the same number of times.
Loose primer pockets are typically a sign of a hot load. If the pockets loosen after a small number of firings then it is an indication that your load is on the hot side and might be on the cusp of pressure issues if temps were different for example.
Has the neck tension gone away on all cases? If so did it dramatically reduce after annealing i.e. where the first 4-5 firings before annealing ok? If this is true then I think you are over annealing the neck, which is possible without impacting the base depending on the number of flames, position of the flame and gas type.
If it is only some cases and you are sizing down ~.001 - .0015 then you may have struck some cases that have necks on the thin side. This combined with a degree of spring back and possibly neck thinning and those specific cases will exhibit "virtually no neck tension" despite being treated in the same manner and fired the same number of times.
Loose primer pockets are typically a sign of a hot load. If the pockets loosen after a small number of firings then it is an indication that your load is on the hot side and might be on the cusp of pressure issues if temps were different for example.
It seems to be more loose after annealing. I have been using a deep socket with 700 degree Tempilaq. That equated to about 7 seconds in the flame.
I just used a .336 bushing and then a .335 bushing and then pressed in a bullet in each. They were better than the .337 bushing obviously but still quite soft feeling. It has to be me over annealing then.
Gonna cut back to about 5.5 seconds and see if that helps
I just used a .336 bushing and then a .335 bushing and then pressed in a bullet in each. They were better than the .337 bushing obviously but still quite soft feeling. It has to be me over annealing then.
Gonna cut back to about 5.5 seconds and see if that helps
Yea, 7 seconds seems a bit long, but honestly time is only one of the factors involved here. How hot the flame is, how close you are to it, where it is pointing, all plays into how hot your neck gets. This is the reason why I ended up going the BenchSource route i.e. I know I could not do it properly.....
If you still want to do the drill and socket method, my best advice is not to use Tempilaq to make this decision. Using Tempilaq for this purpose is a bit like calling the police after the crime has been committed i.e. it's too late for the victim. Use it to check how far the heat has gone down the case and especially the head, but for the neck itself, do the deed in a dark room and look at your neck. As soon as you neck turns even a very slight bit red, you are over annealed. You then need to cut back about 0.5 seconds to get the perfect anneal. This was taught to me by the guy who makes the BenchSource and as far as I know the best way to judge how long to anneal.
If you still want to do the drill and socket method, my best advice is not to use Tempilaq to make this decision. Using Tempilaq for this purpose is a bit like calling the police after the crime has been committed i.e. it's too late for the victim. Use it to check how far the heat has gone down the case and especially the head, but for the neck itself, do the deed in a dark room and look at your neck. As soon as you neck turns even a very slight bit red, you are over annealed. You then need to cut back about 0.5 seconds to get the perfect anneal. This was taught to me by the guy who makes the BenchSource and as far as I know the best way to judge how long to anneal.
I don't shoot competition. What I did with my 6BR was to take a fired case then holding the washer in my hand I found that a commonly used .268" fell onto the neck. A .267" was loose so I bought a .266". My rifle is a no turn .272" neck. I turned the case necks to 0.0127" thick. I found that for the first year when I was using a .268" washer I wasn't ever sizing the neck. However there wasn't a problem without sizing. There was resistance seating the bullets. I pushed a loaded round against the edge of the reloading bench and I couldn't move the bullet. When I went to the .266" washer I believe I am getting slightly smaller groups. My vertical group size is always under .25".
If this can be done, that would be great. However, at least in my limited experience with heavily over annealed brass, that stuff is so soft that I have doubts that you can work harden them ever again. Anyone who has success in doing this should speak up as we would like to hear from you.Catfur said:
CatShooter
amlevin said:
Zinc does not "burn" out of the brass in the neck".
Zinc Oxide is a white powder - if you are burning zinc, you WILL get a white powder - if you are getting a heavy deposit of white powder on your cases necks - you are burning zinc. I have NEVER heard of someone getting white powder on their cases while annealing.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
When annealing can't you do it by eye? watch for color and don't take them to a glowing state.
Here’s the thing. You are supposed to heat it to temps just below what will make them glow faintly. So if you are using color as a hint to stop then you are already past proper annealing temperature.
With a machine, you set your torches and timer and dial up the time until you see the faint glow on waste cases you run through, once there you dial down by 0.25 seconds, check with another waste case and if there is no glow in the dark you can start running though the real cases you are annealing.
With a machine, you set your torches and timer and dial up the time until you see the faint glow on waste cases you run through, once there you dial down by 0.25 seconds, check with another waste case and if there is no glow in the dark you can start running though the real cases you are annealing.
CatShooter
There are a lot of "opinions" on annealing temperatures. Most come from people that have no knowledge of brass annealing - they just heard it from a guy who knew a guy... somewhere.
Some say if it gets visibly red, you have ruined the case, so throw it away and start again... others say you MUST go to a temperature of 784.5° (or some other "magic" critical temperature).
But the accepted temperature for annealing brass is in the 750° to 850° degree range. Google annealing brass - don't read the stuff on gun websites, it is mostly hearsay.
Here are the temperatures that metal glows red.
How to tell what temperature a glowing object (metals) might be:
It doesn't really matter what the emitter is…stainless steel, cast iron, tungsten in your light bulb, the temps are about the same for a given color. Generally accepted colors/temps are:
Temps in Centigrade
400° - Red heat, visible in the dark
474° - Red heat, visible in the twilight
525° - Red heat, visible in the daylight
581° - Red heat, visible in the sunlight
700° - Dark red
800° - Dull cherry-red
900° - Cherry-red
1000° - Bright cherry-red
1100° - 2012 Orange-red
An interesting read on annealing bras and other metals...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_%28metallurgy%29
... and another.
http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/faqs/faqs-brass.shtml#q3
Which asks and answers... "Q What is the annealing temperature for brass? A 500°-550° C"
500° to 550° cent are well into the visible red range.
If you anneal and your necks get visibly red, you are fine, your cases are not ruined. Go shoot them and be happy.
Some say if it gets visibly red, you have ruined the case, so throw it away and start again... others say you MUST go to a temperature of 784.5° (or some other "magic" critical temperature).
But the accepted temperature for annealing brass is in the 750° to 850° degree range. Google annealing brass - don't read the stuff on gun websites, it is mostly hearsay.
Here are the temperatures that metal glows red.
How to tell what temperature a glowing object (metals) might be:
It doesn't really matter what the emitter is…stainless steel, cast iron, tungsten in your light bulb, the temps are about the same for a given color. Generally accepted colors/temps are:
Temps in Centigrade
400° - Red heat, visible in the dark
474° - Red heat, visible in the twilight
525° - Red heat, visible in the daylight
581° - Red heat, visible in the sunlight
700° - Dark red
800° - Dull cherry-red
900° - Cherry-red
1000° - Bright cherry-red
1100° - 2012 Orange-red
An interesting read on annealing bras and other metals...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_%28metallurgy%29
... and another.
http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/faqs/faqs-brass.shtml#q3
Which asks and answers... "Q What is the annealing temperature for brass? A 500°-550° C"
500° to 550° cent are well into the visible red range.
If you anneal and your necks get visibly red, you are fine, your cases are not ruined. Go shoot them and be happy.
Good info Cat.
Back in the day before I read a lot of the recent info about how not to anneal brass cases, I put my favorite batch of sorted Lapua .243 brass in a pan of water and heated the necks to a healthy red glow (in a dark room) and tipped them over. Back then I didn't keep track of # of loadings, but I loaded and shot them over and over and over in a factory chamber. Never split one. I recently annealed the same batch with the spinning socket method and am still using them.
Back in the day before I read a lot of the recent info about how not to anneal brass cases, I put my favorite batch of sorted Lapua .243 brass in a pan of water and heated the necks to a healthy red glow (in a dark room) and tipped them over. Back then I didn't keep track of # of loadings, but I loaded and shot them over and over and over in a factory chamber. Never split one. I recently annealed the same batch with the spinning socket method and am still using them.
CatShooter
Area Man said:
I bought 400 pcs of Winchester 22-250 in 1975. I neck sized them and annealed them every 3 to 5 firings.
I shot out the first barrel of a 40XB stainless single shot, on PD's. Re-barreled the rifle with a new 22-250 barrel, and shot that out on PD's. (I'm a slow learner
)I did 3 more barrels and shot them out on New England Woodchucks (ground hogs to the unwashed and unenlightened
).So I shot the same cases for five barrels, and only FL sized them when I went to a new barrel. I finely got bored with the 22-250, and rebarreled it to .244 Rem.
The cases had been fired ~45 times each, and FL sized 4 times each. They were still usable when I tossed them out.
I bought some new Lapua 22-250 cases (they are friggin beautiful) for a like new 700 VFS that recently followed me home.
A lotta guys make annealing into hoodoo voodoo - it is not.
CatShooter – I don’t mind being wrong as finding the right answer to me is always the most important.
So let’s discuss these “discrepanciesâ€â€¦.
What I based my advice I have been giving is from is a direct quote from the guy who makes and sells the BenchSource machine – I figured if anyone knows how to use it properly, he should. But he is human and so can err, so let’s look a bit more. So what are the questions?
The first one is the temperature brass will anneal.
Going by the manual that comes with the BenchSource, it says 650°F to 700°F. The Giraud annealer documentation says around 750°F. So these two agrees.
You say “accepted temperature for annealing brass is in the 750 to 850 degree range†so that is about the same.
You then say “500 to 550°C†which translates to 932°F to 1,022°F. Now that is significantly higher. So my question is what is your basis for this higher temperature?
The second question is about temperature when the red color can be seen.
The maker of the BenchSource would say over 700°F since he does not want us to go past that.
You say “400°C – Red heat, visible in the dark†which as mentioned earlier is 932°F so as far as I can see not different than saying over 700°F. I am sure the exact temperature you can see that slight red in the dark is by definition a subjective read and so perhaps some of us in a darker room with more dark adapted vision can see that SLIGHT red at around 800°F. Which would agree with the contention that it means you have over annealed if you see that slight red in the dark?
BTW, this link to “Fundermentals of Professional welding†gives the temperature of “Faint red visible in dark “ as 750°F.
http://www.sweethaven.com/sweethaven/BldgConst/Welding/lessonmain.asp?lesNum=2&modNum=3
So let’s discuss these “discrepanciesâ€â€¦.
What I based my advice I have been giving is from is a direct quote from the guy who makes and sells the BenchSource machine – I figured if anyone knows how to use it properly, he should. But he is human and so can err, so let’s look a bit more. So what are the questions?
The first one is the temperature brass will anneal.
Going by the manual that comes with the BenchSource, it says 650°F to 700°F. The Giraud annealer documentation says around 750°F. So these two agrees.
You say “accepted temperature for annealing brass is in the 750 to 850 degree range†so that is about the same.
You then say “500 to 550°C†which translates to 932°F to 1,022°F. Now that is significantly higher. So my question is what is your basis for this higher temperature?
The second question is about temperature when the red color can be seen.
The maker of the BenchSource would say over 700°F since he does not want us to go past that.
You say “400°C – Red heat, visible in the dark†which as mentioned earlier is 932°F so as far as I can see not different than saying over 700°F. I am sure the exact temperature you can see that slight red in the dark is by definition a subjective read and so perhaps some of us in a darker room with more dark adapted vision can see that SLIGHT red at around 800°F. Which would agree with the contention that it means you have over annealed if you see that slight red in the dark?
BTW, this link to “Fundermentals of Professional welding†gives the temperature of “Faint red visible in dark “ as 750°F.
http://www.sweethaven.com/sweethaven/BldgConst/Welding/lessonmain.asp?lesNum=2&modNum=3
CatShooter
Well.. it is not about being right or being wrong, and I am not going to get into a food fight over it... annealing is not something that happens at one fixed point - it happens over a fairly broad range of temperatures.
My point (which has apparently been missed) is that annealing is NOT the critical, life and death, one temperature process, that is often presented as. I have read posts that say that you MUST anneal at 762 degrees, and any higher, and the brass is ruined, and any lower, and it is not annealed properly and the brass gremlins will get you in the middle of the night.
People often say, "If you see red, you have wrecked your brass." That is pure BS of the first order.
I really don't care what temperature people anneal their brass at - I just made that comment for those that are tired of hearing that no matter whaat they do, they have ruined it.
Throwing away absolutely good bras cuz someone who is an anal compulsive, told them that their brass is ruined - when it is not... is silly.
I have been annealing brass since the mid 60's and I have used every process from pans of water on up to linear torch lines w/high speed spinners and acetylene, and I have yet to ruin a single piece of brass, and I have never seen a neck that was too soft and had to be thrown away.
But, maybe I have just been lucky...
.
My point (which has apparently been missed) is that annealing is NOT the critical, life and death, one temperature process, that is often presented as. I have read posts that say that you MUST anneal at 762 degrees, and any higher, and the brass is ruined, and any lower, and it is not annealed properly and the brass gremlins will get you in the middle of the night.
People often say, "If you see red, you have wrecked your brass." That is pure BS of the first order.
I really don't care what temperature people anneal their brass at - I just made that comment for those that are tired of hearing that no matter whaat they do, they have ruined it.
Throwing away absolutely good bras cuz someone who is an anal compulsive, told them that their brass is ruined - when it is not... is silly.
I have been annealing brass since the mid 60's and I have used every process from pans of water on up to linear torch lines w/high speed spinners and acetylene, and I have yet to ruin a single piece of brass, and I have never seen a neck that was too soft and had to be thrown away.
But, maybe I have just been lucky...
.
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