Let's talk Lapua Brass

[jlow]

I can understand you being tired of the discussion about annealing temperature (as most of us are), but as you can clearly see, this thread is not about that but trying to help the OP in his problem. So if this needs to involve talking about annealing and the possibility of his brass being “over annealed”, I don’t see any option of talking about temperature of annealing and how to tell when one may have over annealed.

If you come into the discussion and say that all the numbers and methods are rubbish because you are tired of this type of discussion, how is that being constructive?

 

[CatShooter]

I can understand you being tired of the discussion about annealing temperature (as most of us are), but as you can clearly see, this thread is not about that but trying to help the OP in his problem. So if this needs to involve talking about annealing and the possibility of his brass being “over annealed”, I don’t see any option of talking about temperature of annealing and how to tell when one may have over annealed.

If you come into the discussion and say that all the numbers and methods are rubbish because you are tired of this type of discussion, how is that being constructive?

That is not what I said.

Be careful that you don't burn up all the zinc in your necks...

 

[jlow]

Seems to me you were venting about a lot of stuff as it relates to annealing that has come up in the past but was not part of this discussion. Frustrated - yes I can understand and agree in many ways but it does not directly relate to what we are talking about so not constructive.

 

[Catfur]

CatShooter – I don’t mind being wrong as finding the right answer to me is always the most important.

So let’s discuss these “discrepancies”….

What I based my advice I have been giving is from is a direct quote from the guy who makes and sells the BenchSource machine – I figured if anyone knows how to use it properly, he should. But he is human and so can err, so let’s look a bit more. So what are the questions?

The first one is the temperature brass will anneal.

Going by the manual that comes with the BenchSource, it says 650°F to 700°F. The Giraud annealer documentation says around 750°F. So these two agrees.

You say “accepted temperature for annealing brass is in the 750 to 850 degree range” so that is about the same.

You then say “500 to 550°C” which translates to 932°F to 1,022°F. Now that is significantly higher. So my question is what is your basis for this higher temperature?

The second question is about temperature when the red color can be seen.

The maker of the BenchSource would say over 700°F since he does not want us to go past that.

You say “400°C – Red heat, visible in the dark” which as mentioned earlier is 932°F so as far as I can see not different than saying over 700°F. I am sure the exact temperature you can see that slight red in the dark is by definition a subjective read and so perhaps some of us in a darker room with more dark adapted vision can see that SLIGHT red at around 800°F. Which would agree with the contention that it means you have over annealed if you see that slight red in the dark?

BTW, this link to “Fundermentals of Professional welding” gives the temperature of “Faint red visible in dark “ as 750°F.

http://www.sweethaven.com/sweethaven/BldgConst/Welding/lessonmain.asp?lesNum=2&modNum=3

Actually 400C is 750F (actually 752F), not 932F. I think you used the wrong conversion.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Maybe the guy didn't figure spring back in his pushing die selection and annealing has zero to do with it. I liked hearing Catshooter explanation on annealing, get her hot and don't worry about it

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

CatShooter – I don’t mind being wrong as finding the right answer to me is always the most important.

So let’s discuss these “discrepancies”….

What I based my advice I have been giving is from is a direct quote from the guy who makes and sells the BenchSource machine – I figured if anyone knows how to use it properly, he should. But he is human and so can err, so let’s look a bit more. So what are the questions?

The first one is the temperature brass will anneal.

Going by the manual that comes with the BenchSource, it says 650°F to 700°F. The Giraud annealer documentation says around 750°F. So these two agrees.

You say “accepted temperature for annealing brass is in the 750 to 850 degree range” so that is about the same.

You then say “500 to 550°C” which translates to 932°F to 1,022°F. Now that is significantly higher. So my question is what is your basis for this higher temperature?

The second question is about temperature when the red color can be seen.

The maker of the BenchSource would say over 700°F since he does not want us to go past that.

You say “400°C – Red heat, visible in the dark” which as mentioned earlier is 932°F so as far as I can see not different than saying over 700°F. I am sure the exact temperature you can see that slight red in the dark is by definition a subjective read and so perhaps some of us in a darker room with more dark adapted vision can see that SLIGHT red at around 800°F. Which would agree with the contention that it means you have over annealed if you see that slight red in the dark?

BTW, this link to “Fundermentals of Professional welding” gives the temperature of “Faint red visible in dark “ as 750°F.

http://www.sweethaven.com/sweethaven/BldgConst/Welding/lessonmain.asp?lesNum=2&modNum=3

Actually 400C is 750F (actually 752F), not 932F. I think you used the wrong conversion.

Yeah, he converted Reaumur to Fahrenheit; it's a common mistake. In Russia or Germany a few centuries ago.

 

[jlow]

CatShooter – I don’t mind being wrong as finding the right answer to me is always the most important.

So let’s discuss these “discrepancies”….

What I based my advice I have been giving is from is a direct quote from the guy who makes and sells the BenchSource machine – I figured if anyone knows how to use it properly, he should. But he is human and so can err, so let’s look a bit more. So what are the questions?

The first one is the temperature brass will anneal.

Going by the manual that comes with the BenchSource, it says 650°F to 700°F. The Giraud annealer documentation says around 750°F. So these two agrees.

You say “accepted temperature for annealing brass is in the 750 to 850 degree range” so that is about the same.

You then say “500 to 550°C” which translates to 932°F to 1,022°F. Now that is significantly higher. So my question is what is your basis for this higher temperature?

The second question is about temperature when the red color can be seen.

The maker of the BenchSource would say over 700°F since he does not want us to go past that.

You say “400°C – Red heat, visible in the dark” which as mentioned earlier is 932°F so as far as I can see not different than saying over 700°F. I am sure the exact temperature you can see that slight red in the dark is by definition a subjective read and so perhaps some of us in a darker room with more dark adapted vision can see that SLIGHT red at around 800°F. Which would agree with the contention that it means you have over annealed if you see that slight red in the dark?

BTW, this link to “Fundermentals of Professional welding” gives the temperature of “Faint red visible in dark “ as 750°F.

http://www.sweethaven.com/sweethaven/BldgConst/Welding/lessonmain.asp?lesNum=2&modNum=3

Actually 400C is 750F (actually 752F), not 932F. I think you used the wrong conversion.

Yeah, he converted Reaumur to Fahrenheit; it's a common mistake. In Russia or Germany a few centuries ago.

LOL! BEFORE you guys go one step further on this, read my post one more time. I said 500°C is 932°F only later I mis quoted myself. Still the same question on his annealing temp, but his 400°C/750°F visible in the dark would fit right in with what has been proposed i.e. when you see red, you have gone over the annealing temp.

 

[treeman]

I read most of the posts and would like to throw in my 2 cents. I used to anneal by holding the case with my fingers in a darkened room until i started to see a faint red glow around five seconds time. how ever I started noticing that the shoulder and about 3/8ths to 1/2 " of the body changed to some resemebleance of a rainbow. so now I just watch the color change and when it gets down the right amount on the case I take it out of the heat. I just don't think annealing is rocket science. I had to make a little holder for 6br cases because they get too hot to hold before they are annealed. I also believe annealing after each firing helps keep loads more consistent and keeps vertical dispersion to a minimum .
my$.02

 

[jlow]

Here is the thing. I understand that there are a lot of strong feelings about annealing. People do it a lot of different ways and degrees and as it is with all of us, we want the method that we are using to be the right one. I mean God who wants to find out they have been doing it wrong and affect their expensive brass negatively? I know I don’t as I have had the same feelings.

The biggest problem with annealing is like a lot of things with reloading there is not an easy way non-destructive way for everyone to check so unless things go really belly up, you don’t know.

So the way I have been dealing with it is to follow the advice of the experts, in this case the guy who makes the BenchSource and follow it to the letter and hope that I am doing the right thing. From what I have seen in this most recent exchange, I am no reason to think what his method is incorrect, in fact it has only reinforced my believe that he is right. So this is what I will continue to do. If someone ask me for advice, I will continue to give the same advice I have been giving in this thread. It’s not personal, just honest advice and nothing else.

 

[CatShooter]

LOL! BEFORE you guys go one step further on this, read my post one more time. I said 500°C is 932°F only later I mis quoted myself. Still the same question on his annealing temp, but his 400°C/750°F visible in the dark would fit right in with what has been proposed i.e. when you see red, you have gone over the annealing temp.

Except that non-destructive annealing takes place upwards of 550 degrees centigrade... and you can see that "red" in full daylight.

So setting a 400/750 as an upper limit is false - it is not the upper limit, it is just the bottom "beginning of annealing" limit.

The upper limit is 550 centigrade, which is slightly over 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

So, by deductive reasoning - you cannot get decent annealing unless you see some red, even at a low level, and you have to work hard to get it too hot.

 

[savageshooter86]

Funny how this went off topic so fast.

OP- if you think you over annealed, have you checked spring back on the necks you annealed? You should be able to check and see this yourself.

 

[newgun]

Well to me it never sounded like catshooter was venting and I REALLY appreciate this discussion. As far as primer pockets go what is too lose? I would like to know. I have loaded hundreds of light 260 rem. I used rem brass then Lapua. I would all ways get some that felt much looser and seemed too lose. Some I tossed. But I decided that if they are not in danger of falling out I just use them. I thought I would end up tossing them in the next loading but most I didn't have to. May be I should be more frugal with my brass but now that I have so much if one is in question I toss it because I don't want to think/ worry about it.

 

[CatShooter]

Funny how this went off topic so fast.

OP- if you think you over annealed, have you checked sporting back on the necks you annealed? You should be able to check and see this yourself.

How do you think it went off topic - the original question was about annealing and if/when it is too much??

And, what is "... have you checked sporting back on the necks you annealed?" mean?

 

[Raythemanroe]

I would like to tell everyone that has over annealed there brass not to toss it out but ship it to me ;D

 

[CatShooter]

I would like to tell everyone that has over annealed there brass not to toss it out but ship it to me ;D

Me too.

I have a rest home for all over annealed cases, especially Lapua's. They get well fed and re-hab'ed until they are feeling better.

 

[savageshooter86]

Phone auto text put wrong word there. Was suppose to say "spring back"