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lesson learned...primer pockets

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted old_dood
  • Start date Start date
how do you kill a primer? I'd read that soaking in oil would work.
Soaking in oil , penetrating oil but only guarantee it to be killed till dry .
If you can , meaning noise , you can fire the primer in an EMPTY case . As long as there's no powder and bullet it'll give near identical results . To be sure , have 5-10 sized or new cases , prime and fire . Take the average .
Usually a I phone or iPad will enhance the photo of the fired enough to compare to fired cartridges .
 
It sounds like it's not your first 223 Ackley. Is all your LC brass the same head stamp? Did you take out the ejector and extractor when you screwed the barrel on? Did you use a 223 Ackley go gauge to tighten the barrel nut? You know the bolt closing should be harder than normal 223 chambers. Did the bolt closing feel the same with the rounds that didn't fire? Did you blank any primers? Don't cut deeper than necessary with the uniforming tool, you aren't cutting a new pocket. I seem to remember firing pin protrusion on a Savage should be about .040 The Ackley wants to index on the neck shoulder junction so a headspace gauge on LC brass might not be the same across different case lots. I shoot a 243 Ackley so have run across some problems. I have both shouldered barrels for a Rem. and barrel nut for a Savage. Good luck. Good shooting.
 
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If you measure the distance from the neck/shoulder junction on the formed brass and compare it to the virgin cases it should be shorter. Using the parent case headspace gauge is not a great method to check an AI case. They are measuring different points of the chamber.

What was your headspace measurement with each gauge? +\- .???" I always have mine set to -.007" short of the parent case "zero" headspace. Which is almost always .003" shorter than the AI gauge "zero" headspace.

If you use the reamer to make a little bump gauge and measure all your informed brass you find that there are almost always some that are shorter than the .004" short of the parent headspace gauge.

Not saying this is 100% your problem, but, it very well could be and is something worth checking.
 
Soaking in oil , penetrating oil but only guarantee it to be killed till dry .
If you can , meaning noise , you can fire the primer in an EMPTY case . As long as there's no powder and bullet it'll give near identical results . To be sure , have 5-10 sized or new cases , prime and fire . Take the average .
Usually a I phone or iPad will enhance the photo of the fired enough to compare to fired cartridges .
OK, I did what you said. I found 5 new cases that had bottoms that weren't even using the process with caliper I described before. I had to check about 40 cases to find these 5. I took 5 CCI450s and soaked in Kroil for several hours then dried them, loaded them in the unmodified cases and fired them. None ignited. Here's the pic.
DSCN0692.JPG
then I decapped them, uniformed the pockets to a depth of .120 plus or minus half a thousanth, and loaded with the CCI450s which were also soaked in Kroil overnight, dried, and fired in the same rifle.
DSCN0693.JPG
each case is in the same position for both pictures. In the second picture 4 of the 5 primers actually ignited but the report was barely audible, nothing like a primer usually sounds when fired in an empty case.
 
You have either too much headspace, not enough firing pin protrusion or not enough spring power .
If your fp protrusion was 50 and your headspace was correct ( crush for fireform) your primer would be indented the amount of your firing pin protrusion.
How are you eliminating the military crimp to begin with ?
 
You have either too much headspace, not enough firing pin protrusion or not enough spring power .
If your fp protrusion was 50 and your headspace was correct ( crush for fireform) your primer would be indented the amount of your firing pin protrusion.
How are you eliminating the military crimp to begin with ?
when I got the bolt back from Grimstod I set the headspace such that it closed on a 223ai go gauge and did not on a regular 223 go gauge. This is the method I've always used and is documented. At the same time, I replaced the spring with one obtained directly from Savage. The new spring, relaxed, was about a half inch longer than the one I replaced. The FP protrusion was set to .042-.045". There's no crimp on the brass as they're all new, unfired. There's nothing wrong with my methodology and I'm convinced, based on the test I did above, which you suggested, that the uneven recess on maybe 5-8% of cases in this batch is the cause of the misfires and I will continue to uniform them and that is all I will do other than normal reloading practices.
 
So you do have light hits . With out a doubt . So now to find out why .
One of 3 possibles
1 excessive headspace
2 not enough firing pin protruding
3 not enough spring force
Or a combination of a little of each .
How are you measuring firing pin protrusion? Is your sear (pin) on an angle when in fired position ?
 
when I got the bolt back from Grimstod I set the headspace such that it closed on a 223ai go gauge and did not on a regular 223 go gauge. This is the method I've always used and is documented. At the same time, I replaced the spring with one obtained directly from Savage. The new spring, relaxed, was about a half inch longer than the one I replaced. The FP protrusion was set to .042-.045". There's no crimp on the brass as they're all new, unfired. There's nothing wrong with my methodology and I'm convinced, based on the test I did above, which you suggested, that the uneven recess on maybe 5-8% of cases in this batch is the cause of the misfires and I will continue to uniform them and that is all I will do other than normal reloading practices.
You are missing the whole time test . You are a stubborn one . But still I try to help . How , just how do you justify removing metal and getting a larger imprint on the primer ? Something is amiss .
The test I suggested PROVED YOU HAVE WHAT I SAID ! Not enough headspace , not enough fp protrusion or not enough fp pressure .
You are getting results you want ,not looking at the evidence in front of you .
I'm not always correct but in this instance I guarantee it . If you refuse to open your eyes , you will stumble and never learn the basics you need to get the results you should have .
I wish you the best , don't blow yourself up or anyone else , I'm trying here but with such obvious evidence, that you supplied , you still insist on the unrealistic. Removing metal and getting larger imprints is against the basics . Your moving the primer further in the case and it should show even less of a hit . You need your headspace checked , firing pin checked and spring checked .
 
OK, I did what you said. I found 5 new cases that had bottoms that weren't even using the process with caliper I described before. I had to check about 40 cases to find these 5. I took 5 CCI450s and soaked in Kroil for several hours then dried them, loaded them in the unmodified cases and fired them. None ignited. Here's the pic.
View attachment 1057152
then I decapped them, uniformed the pockets to a depth of .120 plus or minus half a thousanth, and loaded with the CCI450s which were also soaked in Kroil overnight, dried, and fired in the same rifle.
View attachment 1057161
each case is in the same position for both pictures. In the second picture 4 of the 5 primers actually ignited but the report was barely audible, nothing like a primer usually sounds when fired in an empty case.
THESE ARE LIGHT HITS !
Ask others , take you rifle to a smith . Your marginal even if they go bang .
 
THESE ARE LIGHT HITS !
Ask others , take you rifle to a smith . Your marginal even if they go bang .
would you also suggest that the shooter next to me, who was shooting his 223 all day long, would also have wrong headspace, weak firing pin, misadjusted firing pin when two rounds I gave to him misfired?
 
Removing metal and getting larger imprints is against the basics . Your moving the primer further in the case and it should show even less of a hit .
I believe the reason for the light strikes was the firing pin driving the primer somewhat further into the case. I didn't notice an appreciable difference in primer depth between unmodified and modified cases. I believe the deeper indent in the second group of cases was because the primers were completely bottomed around their circumference and therefore couldn't be pushed deeper.
 
Just a quick reminder about threading on a barrel and setting headspace. You're working with a pressure vessel, a.k.a a bomb, that you plan to use inches from your face.

You can say whatever you want about "documented" methods, but at the end of the day you used the incorrect no-go gauge to make sure that you're headspace is safe. The no-go gauge is the most important one! Get the correct tool, or take your gun to a smith before you hurt yourself or someone else.
 
Just a quick reminder about threading on a barrel and setting headspace. You're working with a pressure vessel, a.k.a a bomb, that you plan to use inches from your face.

You can say whatever you want about "documented" methods, but at the end of the day you used the incorrect no-go gauge to make sure that you're headspace is safe. The no-go gauge is the most important one! Get the correct tool, or take your gun to a smith before you hurt yourself or someone else.
read the fifth paragraph.
https://rifleshooter.com/2016/11/223-ackley-improved-223ai-loads-and-review-a-better-223/
 
Wow, this thread has gone wild. Lots of WAGs from trying to diagnose a problem long distance and some not reading the OP's posts/replies. The OP seems to be on top of the "headspace/shoulder position, fire forming" issues and all I can see is the cases in the pics seem to have a lot of the crimp still in place and perhaps a light firing pin strike, but the cases that were tried, decapped and reprimed seem to have heavier strikes in the second photo, (lighting?). Beyond that I'm not equipped with ESP to form an opinion about the problem from here in Oregon...
 
The 223ai is not a standardized chamber. Did the company or gunsmith who made your chamber tell you to do it this way? Or did you check the reamer print used with your barrel to ensure that your 223 go gauge ACTUALLY provides the correct headspacing?

I would check that headspace is correct by another method because it is critical to safe operation. Firing pin assembly is the next step in the process of checking the most dangerous potential causes first. Every rifle is a bomb. ~50,000psi is right next to your face, and the correct design and assembly is the only thing containing it.
 
Wow, this thread has gone wild. Lots of WAGs from trying to diagnose a problem long distance and some not reading the OP's posts/replies. The OP seems to be on top of the "headspace/shoulder position, fire forming" issues and all I can see is the cases in the pics seem to have a lot of the crimp still in place and perhaps a light firing pin strike, but the cases that were tried, decapped and reprimed seem to have heavier strikes in the second photo, (lighting?). Beyond that I'm not equipped with ESP to form an opinion about the problem from here in Oregon...

Like you, I am not clairvoyant, so long distance troubleshooting is difficult, at best. However, let's review some of the points Ggmac has made, if you'll indulge me, please?

By uniforming the primer pockets, cutting the pocket deeper, the affect is to increase the distance that the firing pin has to travel to strike the primer. Highly unlikely that this operation will help with light firing pin strikes. It is much more likely that during the depriming operation, the shoulder of the brass is being affected in such a way so as to increase the case length, thereby moving the primer closer to the bolt head/firing pin which would likely help/correct a light primer strike condition.

Or at least, it certainly seems plausible to me. And much more likely.
 
Wow, this thread has gone wild. Lots of WAGs from trying to diagnose a problem long distance and some not reading the OP's posts/replies. The OP seems to be on top of the "headspace/shoulder position, fire forming" issues and all I can see is the cases in the pics seem to have a lot of the crimp still in place and perhaps a light firing pin strike, but the cases that were tried, decapped and reprimed seem to have heavier strikes in the second photo, (lighting?). Beyond that I'm not equipped with ESP to form an opinion about the problem from here in Oregon...
He insists no crimps were present . I too can see the crimp
 

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