lesson learned...primer pockets

[fredo]

I also think this may be an excessive HS issue. I am not convinced that your rifle has excessive HS but is it possible that the brass you are using is creating an excessive HS situation? Do you have a device that will allow you to accurately measure from the case head to the datum ref. point? If so measure the 223 cases you have and compare them to a known standard such as a 223 rem go gauge. You can quickly eliminate a variable. I have a possible explanation as to why your results are better after you uniformed the pockets, this will sound counter intuitive but I observed last week loading 223 ammo and was surprised. You said that you took the cases that did not fire and decapped them uniformed the pockets reprimed them and they worked. I will assume you de-primed them with a FL sizing die and offer the following explanation, and then Ill put my nomex suit on. I made a simple device by partially reaming a piece of barrel and fashioning it in a way that it could be fastened to my caliper to measure the base to datum of my cases when I was sizing them. Start with a fired case from my rifle measure and set caliper to 0. Now I slowly lower the sizing die checking my results as I lower the die. I expected to observe that as I lowered the die the shoulder would bump back and I would see a -.001 ect. What actually happened surprised me a bit the case actually "grew" a little before the shoulder started to push back. I suspect that some dimensional differences between my dies and the chamber caused the cases to be squeezed a little causing the shoulder to get pushed forward a bit before the die could come in contact with the shoulder to move it back. So if you had cases that created excessive HS then you decapped them and your dies like mine squeezed that shoulder forward a bit it could correct the HS enough to make the FP strike OK. Short HS on your cases would explain why they would not fire in your buddys rifle. Im just throwin some against the wall YMMMV

^^^THIS^^^
LC is 5.56 brass
So, if you indeed did use a .223Rem FL die to de-prime, it is very likely that the FL die 'squeezed' the case body as you de-primed. Any subsequent 'reaming' of the primer pocket, or change in primer make/model is inconsequential...
So, back to the FL die. Did ya use one to de-prime?

If so, ask yourself...where does that 'squeezed' brass go???
Answer, it flows UP toward the case mouth, as the die is supporting the rest of the case...

So, ineffect, by way of your de-priming operation via FL Die, you (without even knowing) INCREASED case shoulder length of that 'unfired brass'. Thereby, the initial "excessive headspace" condition you introduced by inaccurately (read:incorrectly) setting it TOO LONG, was in fact mitigated by elongating that brass when ya de-primed it...

It's either that, or the 'voodoo' primer pocket reamer fantasy you deduced from thin air, based on a flawed premise that defies all logic

 

[Deleted old_dood]

Yep and a potential clue was raised earlier and a question was asked about crimping that old dood overlooked to mean neck crimps. In fact if I understood the question that IIRC was asked after brass pics were posted that showed what appeared to be a existing primer crimp. Working with brass without uniforming that existing crimp can make primer insertion difficult and stress primers so the anvil is not properly located............hey presto........misfires !

never knew that new, unfired brass has crimps. VOILA!!!! problem solved.

 

[alinwa]

never knew that new, unfired brass has crimps. VOILA!!!! problem solved.

HOLeee SHI......out

 

[natdscott]

You have some other problem seating your primers.
The original LC. Primers fired fine. Millions of rounds of LC brass fire every month without being uniformed.

100%

 

[Homerange]

never knew that new, unfired brass has crimps. VOILA!!!! problem solved.

Looking back to the OP you didn't say if the LC brass was new and/or primed or once fired and as it's normally military brass it's standard to be sporting crimped primers. With this important info there wouldn't have been all the conjecture to the possible cause.
Only you know how much material was being removed in uniforming the pockets and the difference in effort required to seat primers in untouched or uniformed pockets. While the anvils are normally not moved with seating the additional effort required into crimped pockets could indeed upset them enough to produce misfires.
While I don't uniform pockets, it's instantly apparent if a primer takes undue force to seat it and I've removed primer crimps from Mil brass with just just a neck chamfering tool. PITA but it can be done.


Sharing info and solving problems is what we do here but it's hard without the full/big picture.

 

[Someoldguy]

Looking back to the OP you didn't say if the LC brass was new and/or primed or once fired and as it's normally military brass it's standard to be sporting crimped primers. With this important info there wouldn't have been all the conjecture to the possible cause.
Only you know how much material was being removed in uniforming the pockets and the difference in effort required to seat primers in untouched or uniformed pockets. While the anvils are normally not moved with seating the additional effort required into crimped pockets could indeed upset them enough to produce misfires.
While I don't uniform pockets, it's instantly apparent if a primer takes undue force to seat it and I've removed primer crimps from Mil brass with just just a neck chamfering tool. PITA but it can be done.


Sharing info and solving problems is what we do here but it's hard without the full/big picture.

Actually, in post #6, I think, the OP stated it was 'all new, unfired brass.' I did not know LC brass could be purchased new and unfired, but I've never looked for it, either. All my personal experience with LC brass was once fired stuff I bought in bulk for hunting rifles.

Anyway, just thought I'd point that out as I remembered reading it.

 

[alinwa]

OK, some things....... please feel free to contradict or correct with facts.

There is no such animal as "new unfired brass with crimps"

#1, primers are CRIMPED IN PLACE. There is no such thing as "new crimped cases without primers"

#2, it has been possible to buy PRIMED LC brass but it's important to note that cases are NEVER primed after crimping, the crimp is done after priming, to hold the primer in place. There have occasionally been lots of primed, crimped brass sold in which the sellers have tried to kill the primers and sold them as "primed but inert"..... I have no idea why anyone would do this.

#3, there is no such thing as ""unfired brass with crimps"... unless it is, or has been primed brass.

#4, it's well nigh impossible to re-prime crimped cases without removing the crimps that were PUT IN TO HOLD THE PRIMERS IN PLACE.

In short, crimped cases have primers. Period. Unless someone somewhere is depriming unfired crimped cases. No mfgr anywhere has ever put out brass with crimps but no primers.

AND, to reload crimped cases, the crimp needs to be modified, swaged, reamed or otherwise removed.

And none of this has any effect on the OP's problem.........

 

[butchlambert]

In theory new brass should have the same head space in a Ackley chamber.

Maybe I misread PT&G's note, but think they are saying the headspace is different. I still believe he has a headspace problem. Needs to have a smith or some one that is more familiar with Ackleys to school him.
I always jam a round hard into the lands to fireform AI rounds. Yes, I have a few.

 

[Someoldguy]

OK, some things....... please feel free to contradict or correct with facts.

There is no such animal as "new unfired brass with crimps"

#1, primers are CRIMPED IN PLACE. There is no such thing as "new crimped cases without primers"

#2, it has been possible to buy PRIMED LC brass but it's important to note that cases are NEVER primed after crimping, the crimp is done after priming, to hold the primer in place. There have occasionally been lots of primed, crimped brass sold in which the sellers have tried to kill the primers and sold them as "primed but inert"..... I have no idea why anyone would do this.

#3, there is no such thing as ""unfired brass with crimps"... unless it is, or has been primed brass.

#4, it's well nigh impossible to re-prime crimped cases without removing the crimps that were PUT IN TO HOLD THE PRIMERS IN PLACE.

In short, crimped cases have primers. Period. Unless someone somewhere is depriming unfired crimped cases. No mfgr anywhere has ever put out brass with crimps but no primers.

AND, to reload crimped cases, the crimp needs to be modified, swaged, reamed or otherwise removed.

And none of this has any effect on the OP's problem.........

I do not dispute anything that you said above, merely pointing out the OPs statement regarding the brass.
I did not intend to add to the confusion already abundant in this thread. I was attempting to correct a bit of it. Looks like I messed that up. Sorry.
Thank you for the info on the LC brass.

 

[alinwa]

I do not dispute anything that you said above, merely pointing out the OPs statement regarding the brass.
I did not intend to add to the confusion already abundant in this thread. I was attempting to correct a bit of it. Looks like I messed that up. Sorry.
Thank you for the info on the LC brass.

No, No, No, please no need for sorry!

LIFE is confusing....... and only conversation and discussion can dissipate that. That in itself is the raw beauty of innernet forum discussions, as long as we can all maintain civility, the forum aspect allows everyone and everything to proceed in a timely and thoughtful fashion.

And corrections, retractions and clarifications can proceed apace.

It's all good.

 

[Geno C]

And measurements from the formed cases compared to the cases that wouldn't fire? That would go a long way toward seeing if it's a headspace problem.

Base to neck/shoulder junction on both in particular would be what I'd look for.

A little bump gauge made from the reamer works perfectly for this.

 

[GrocMax]

450's are too insensitive/thick for 223 based AI fireforming duties. You shove the case forward making the neck longer (I measured over .040"), just like a die. This can be easily verified/measured. You can check headspace and case size till you're blue in the face and still have a high % of FTF with 450's. Switch to 400's and all is well, no case head seps, fully formed case. Switch back to 450's when you have a fully formed case that can't go forward in the chamber so easily. Won't need to do anything else but use a 400 primer.

 

[fyrewall]

before I fired the bad rounds I adjusted FP protrusion during the course of changing the spring. I adjusted it to about .045". When I had 2 misfires, I readjusted to a little over .060" and maximized the compression on the spring. This made no difference. After doing the primer pockets my confidence level was such that I readjusted the protrusion back to where it was before and reduced the compression on the spring. 75 rounds fired normally with identical dimples in the primers.

Sometimes making something work takes some effort. My rifles have a pin protrusion of .060 and have a hefty spring compression and I am fussy about preferring minimum head-space thus adjusting brass head space so when the bolt is stripped I can only feel ejector compression provide the bolt has an ejector.

All this makes me think that the problem is one of excessive head-space. What else - primers fired after work on pockets, fired rounds were broken down & reloaded including seating new bullets. Possibly, the your Savage M12, might need less head-space. My experience with CCI 450's and CCI 41's tells me that that both are to preferred with higher pressure rounds like .223 AI and are not immune to a moderate firing pin strike but with excessive head-space the pin hit won't occur. Possibly the barrel might be screwed into the receiver a tiny bit more this reducing head-space. An alternative would be to fire form ammo with jammed bullets. As previously mentioned I like to fire-form rounds in a slightly short chamber making for a gentle crush fit. After the round is fire-formed subsequent loadings may be sized for the desired head-space.

I sometimes fire-form rifle rounds using cream of wheat (no bullet - save money!), pistol powder, toilet paper, and any available primer including thin cup pistol primers like CCI 500's and 300's. They all go bang provided the firing pin hits the primer and a chamber enabling a crush fit ensures this as the base of the round is in contact with the bolt face. Moderate pressures like those obtained in handgun loadings are enough to fire form rifle brass with sharp shoulders and desired or little body taper - the pistol primers are suitable for fireforming pressures like those found in handgun loads.

Where the 75 rounds from a different batch of ammo - possibly that batch had less head-space?

 

[Deleted old_dood]

Wow, I can't believe where this thread has gone.

with regard to the majority of respondents who said I had a headspace issue, the following is a quote from me to another forum member who sent me a PM about the issue.

"I decided to follow someone else's suggestion to add tape to the back of the 223ai go guage so that, when measuring with a comparator, there was .002 difference in length. Before I changed anything I pulled the extractor and measured using the 223 go gauge like I had done originally. the bolt didn't close. Then I put in the 223ai go gauge with the tape and found that it would close but I was getting heavy resistance about half way of handle rotation. I could actually close it all the way but speculate, since it's tape on the end, not steel, if I'd be able to do that with a real nogo gauge. I decided the reset the headspace using the taped gauge. Previously fired cases were then tight and I had to readjust my FL sizer. I won't be fireforming for a while but, when I do, I intend on following someone elses suggestion of using cci400s instead of the 450s."

OK, so maybe my headspace was maybe slightly long...perhaps by .0005-.001.

crimped primers? why would there be a crimp on new brass? this is the brass I bought https://www.natchezss.com/federal-lake-city-unprimed-bagged-brass-5-56mm-rem-250-ct.html Before you tell me it's the I can't use new 5.56 brass, the dimensions of .223 and 5.56mm brass are the same. The 5.56 brass might have a little thicker wall and therefore possibly less capacity but should be more rugged. When I used Federal .223 brass the primer pockets loosened up after just a few firings.

brass too short? That's a possibility. I zeroed my caliper on a .223 go gauge using a comparator and then grabbed about 30 new cases from the lot I bought. they all measured .0000 to +.0015.
So, some were shorter than others but none were shorter that the go gauge. That, combined with the very slightly short headspace described about is probably significant.

The issue still remains of the 5 cases I provided the pictures of. Some speculated that in decapping the first group, the die I used somehow stretched the brass. When I decapped those I used a bushing neck die with no bushing in it so the cases could not have been stretched. So why did the second group look that way, even with the primers sitting very slightly lower in the pocket?

I'd like to thank all you responded. I will never use CCI450s for fireforming again and will continue to invest the time to uniform the primer pockets. (10 minutes for 50 cases)

 

[butchlambert]

Wow, I can't believe where this thread has gone.

with regard to the majority of respondents who said I had a headspace issue, the following is a quote from me to another forum member who sent me a PM about the issue.

"I decided to follow someone else's suggestion to add tape to the back of the 223ai go guage so that, when measuring with a comparator, there was .002 difference in length. Before I changed anything I pulled the extractor and measured using the 223 go gauge like I had done originally. the bolt didn't close. Then I put in the 223ai go gauge with the tape and found that it would close but I was getting heavy resistance about half way of handle rotation. I could actually close it all the way but speculate, since it's tape on the end, not steel, if I'd be able to do that with a real nogo gauge. I decided the reset the headspace using the taped gauge. Previously fired cases were then tight and I had to readjust my FL sizer. I won't be fireforming for a while but, when I do, I intend on following someone elses suggestion of using cci400s instead of the 450s."

OK, so maybe my headspace was maybe slightly long...perhaps by .0005-.001.

crimped primers? why would there be a crimp on new brass? this is the brass I bought https://www.natchezss.com/federal-lake-city-unprimed-bagged-brass-5-56mm-rem-250-ct.html Before you tell me it's the I can't use new 5.56 brass, the dimensions of .223 and 5.56mm brass are the same. The 5.56 brass might have a little thicker wall and therefore possibly less capacity but should be more rugged. When I used Federal .223 brass the primer pockets loosened up after just a few firings.

brass too short? That's a possibility. I zeroed my caliper on a .223 go gauge using a comparator and then grabbed about 30 new cases from the lot I bought. they all measured .0000 to +.0015.
So, some were shorter than others but none were shorter that the go gauge. That, combined with the very slightly short headspace described about is probably significant.

The issue still remains of the 5 cases I provided the pictures of. Some speculated that in decapping the first group, the die I used somehow stretched the brass. When I decapped those I used a bushing neck die with no bushing in it so the cases could not have been stretched. So why did the second group look that way, even with the primers sitting very slightly lower in the pocket?

I'd like to thank all you responded. I will never use CCI450s for fireforming again and will continue to invest the time to uniform the primer pockets. (10 minutes for 50 cases)

Sounds if you have all the answers.

 

[Ringostar]

I looked at the posted link. If you look below they show actual new brass at $31 for 100. The brass that you bought is used military brass at $54 for 250. Hence the primer crimp.

 

[GrocMax]

Actually LC brass is some of the lightest and highest capacity 223, its thinner from below the shoulder to the top of the neck on average than most. 92.5gr avg

Its easy to measure and verify the root cause of the FTF's using a .245"-.247" bushing and a new piece of brass, use the bushing as a base to shoulder to neck distance comparator measurement before and after. Look at the 'light strike' and see the neck get significantly longer because the neck to shoulder junction got forced into the neck area of the chamber. Other brands of brass that are thick neck (Starline) may not show any issues.

I looked at the posted link. If you look below they show actual new brass at $31 for 100. The brass that you bought is used military brass at $54 for 250. Hence the primer crimp.

No it isn't, it was overruns sold new from 15-16 production. Federal runs the LC plant. Its pretty much gone now but did pick up another bag a month ago at a local store.

 

[Deleted old_dood]

I looked at the posted link. If you look below they show actual new brass at $31 for 100. The brass that you bought is used military brass at $54 for 250. Hence the primer crimp.

sigh. I feel that some people just have to contradict. Look at the brass that's $31 per 100. Does it say it's Lake City 5.56? Look at the reviews for the 250 5.56 No crimps.

 

[GrocMax]

You can also get new LC Nato from a few milsurp dealers like Pat's and Bartletts. My assumption is they are offered bulk overrun product on occasion. Lake City makes like 2 million 223 cases a day.

 

[Ringostar]

sigh. I feel that some people just have to contradict. Look at the brass that's $31 per 100. Does it say it's Lake City 5.56? Look at the reviews for the 250 5.56 No crimps.

Then why did you say on Wednesday that it does have crimps, and now your problem was solved?