Lee collet or redding S

[xtightg]

I just reloaded my .243 win had problems with bushing dies doughnuts and stringing. Set up my old Lee Collet Die ran the cases through it several times hay presto consistent seating and almost one hole at 100 yards. If Lee Collet Dies were four times the price they still would size the inside of the neck not the outside seams to me that's where the projectile is held. Collet Dies work. Perhaps Lee should paint or anodise them fancy colours and of course charge four times the price with optional gold coloured mandrels in various sizes with glossy coloured instruction manuals.
Inexpensive maybe, not cheap.

 

[NRV]

I have a few Lee Collet dies and have come to this conclusion:
Lee Collet dies are very good for factory chambers and/or cases in which you aren't going to neck turn. On some of my old Sav/Rem/Wins, the chamber was cut so oversized, that full sizing everytime seemed to be moving brass around in the head and body area a lot more that I was comforatble with. I wasn't set up to neck turn then, so the Lee die was a good solution for me. When the cases did get too big, a Redding body die sized them back.

Once I got some custom barrels with tight chambers, they could really shine with a bushing die. They also were worth neck turning cases, etc. I would sometimes get unacceptable runout if sizing with a bushing but not neck turning.

FWIW, I really like the Forster dies. Both their bushing dies and once I know the desired neck tension, getting their FL dies honed.

 

[boltman13]

NRV, I have had nothing but success with my Collet dies in factory chambers as well. Have used 30-06, 308, 257 R, 7X57, all worked well. On cases I had turned off the high spots with a Forester case neck trimmer I had no problems as well. I do use a Wilson hand tool on my tight necked 308 HBR rifle. Have never tried the Collet die, hum. I hope Lee will come out with a 6.5 Creedmore Collet die I could try.

 

[Tozguy]

Another interesting aspect of the Lee collett die is the ribbing left on the neck. Harold Vaughn in his book titled RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS relates the results of his experimentation with splined neck sizing. In essence he found a ‘dramatic’ improvement in the accuracy of a 6mm bench gun using splined neck resizing (p. 146). The idea being that the splines help center the bullet with the bore centerline without worrying about getting a close fit between the chamber and case neck like you do with the traditional bench rest method.
Up to now I have tried to reduce the ribs created by the Lee collett die by slightly rotating the case in the holder and giving it a second pass in the die. This second pass now seems unnecessary and maybe even be detrimental to accuracy.

 

[BoydAllen]

It is unfortunate that the moderator had such a bad experience with his Collet die. I think that this is mostly a matter of poor quality control, since my dies, that were purchased a long time back, have none of the problems listed. For factory chambers, and unturned necks, I am sure that Collet dies give the most consistent concentricity, although I would substitute something like the Forster seater. If pressures are moderate, more than one reloading can be accomplished with the collet die. If body sizing is needed, a two step sizing procedure can be used with a body die (properly set for shoulder bump). As far as worrying about runout of unfired cases, I think that it is largely a waste of time to straighten them, unless a test has proved that it improves groups, the same for reformed cases. One more thing, neck tension should be adjusted by substituting different sized mandrels. They are available from Lee, or you can polish down the one that comes with the die, using wet and dry and a drill. If you are toggling the press enough to produce significant ridging, you need to back off your die just a mite, until you can just feel light toggling at the top of the stroke. This is at variance with the factory instructions. Also, the Lee lock rings should not be tightened metal to metal with the press. They are designed to let the die float on the O ring. This helps alignment. As far as donuts go, if your chamber is large enough, they may help, because they do not size all the way to the shoulder. Another thing, If you decide to neck turn, after firing, you should use a sizing die that sizes the necks all the way to the shoulder, before expanding to turn.

 

[Tozguy]

BoydAllen,
The issue issue of toggling seems very important to me. Most toggle presses have a progressive mechanical advantage as they approach the top of their stroke. At the toggle over point my press would have more than enough pressure to destroy the Lee collett die while sizing. Lee warns about this in their literature. My solution was to screw the die down far enough to keep the toggle from approaching the high leverage zone. This way I am using the minimum amount of leverage required to size the cases (which is considerably less than the leverage required for traditional dies).
Re the ribs, after reading Mr. Vauhn's findings it might very well be that those ribs are good and that more is better.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you adjust the die down by feel, not as the instructions indicate, so that a slight interference is felt, at the very top of the stroke, you will not destroy anything,, unless you are using a pot metal press. As to the ribs, I have spent a lot of time shooting cases that were sized with and without, and cannot see the advantage on paper. Sometimes theory does not translate to real world performance. I remember an article about a fellow who went to the trouble of making brass from that of a different caliber, so that the necks would be thicker, and chamber fit enhanced. It did not increase accuracy. I am not discounting better fit. I have tight necked rifles that do quite well, but one needs to test an idea to really know that it works.

 

[Tozguy]

BoydAllen,
The instructions received with my Lee collett die say the following:
Quote ‘….presses that toggle or snap over center at the end of the stroke provide no feel and can damage the collett neck sizing die if adjusted as above. We suggest the die be screwed in until the die contacts the shell holder then, plus 2 full turns. This will prevent the press from toggling over center and give the operator more feel of the collet closing.’ end of quote. The initial adjustment referred to as the ‘above’ mentions only one full turn beyond contact with the shell holder.
Obviously not all presses are created equal and all I can say is that I get very good feel with my setup and am confident that I won’t be ruining the die from using too much pressure. If that is the case (no pun intended) for you too then we have no argument.
Re the ribs, you write that ‘one needs to test an idea to really know that it works’. I agree! That’s exactly what Harold Vauhn did. In fact he reports on both approaches, neck turning with tight chambers versus splined neck sizing. He seems to say that both have a significant impact on reducing dispersion of bullets on the target. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. The point to my mentioning his work on splined sizing is NOT to say it is better than neck turning. It is because it relates to the ribs we get from collett sizing and makes for interesting reading if you are so inclined.

 

[BoydAllen]

I read the instructions, a long time ago, and understand why they are what they are. They were written to keep those who are not overly mechanically inclined out of trouble. There is another approach that works. If you do it incorrectly there can be problems. Given the differences in mechanical aptitude that exist in any population(no reference to present company intended), the factory instructions are probably the best approach for most reloaders.

Harold was a very smart guy. I have his book, and enjoyed visiting with him on more than one occasion. I have also ribbed case necks with a Collet die, and not noticed any disadvantages or advantages as compared to using the same die in a manner that did not produce ribs. Presently, I have a smaller diameter central mandrel in the die that needs more neck tension, and am more careful when I adjust the die. Generall, I use my Rockchucker for this work. If I were using a press that was less sturdy, one of Lee's earlier designs, I probalby would have damaged it using the same method that works with my Rockchucker. Also, a long timeago, before I got the whole thing figured out, I must admit that I mushroomed the bottom of the sliding sleeve in a 30-30 collet die that I was using for cast bullet loads. So much for my inherent brilliance. Since then, I have been more observant., and learned a thing or two along the way...almost no toggle, and no ribs.

 

[Tozguy]

BoydAllen,
Considering that you have met Harold Vauhn in person, I envy the both of you!

Your experience with collett dies brought back memories, I almost ruined my collett die during the first set up. My problem was having to forget everything I knew about setting up traditional FL dies. The physics of the die is not very complicated, just completely different than the physics of traditional dies. As someone who is up the learning curve associated with collett dies, what words of wisdom would you have to help make a person’s initiation to the use of collett dies a successful one?

 

[BoydAllen]

I was not so lucky as to meet him in person, but we had several long and enjoyable phone conversations, in which I was able to learn a lot. He was quite a guy.

I would advise anyone that was starting out with a collet die to take it apart so as to be able to understand how it works. This will also help in understanding that the neck tension is controlled by the central mandrel diameter. The next thing is to follow the instruction not to operate the die without a case in place, to avoid springing the collet. Other than that, If you have a sturdy, case iron press, you can work at the top of the ram travel, working the handle and adjusting the die, with a case in place, till a very slight "toggling" is felt, and remember that if you feel unusual resistance as the ram reaches the top of its stroke, you may have a thicker neck, that requires a different adjustment. Don't force it. Stop and investigate. I have two friends that use these dies. One adjusts the die down and leans on the handle without going all the way to the top of the stroke. The other does as I do, which he arrived at on his own. They both get their necks sized. Take your pick.

 

[Tozguy]

Your suggestion to disassemble the die would also allow one to check that the collett part number matches the caliber number stamped on the body. It is easy to imagine that a wrong collett being accidently inserted at the factory would go unnoticed until the customer consummed some cases with it. Makes me wonder what the numbers are on our moderators bad die.

 

[jo191145]

Hi all I am having problems reloading my .243 win.
Getting vertical stringing and poor grouping.
I am using a Forsters neck bushing / bump die with Lapua cases.
Feels like their is a ridge inside the bottom of the neck.
The bullet goes into the case as normal then hits the ridge or obstruction and requires more force to seat it then seams to click past the obstruction to seat at the required depth.
The force required is deforming the projectile and forming a ring from the seating die.
This ridge is giving inconsistent neck tension and stringing.
Previously used a Lee collet die no problems other than the cases being a tight fit for many years.
Am I doing something wrong, is the die forming an internal ridge when it bumps the shoulder , I thought the Forsters die would cure tight fitting cases and neck size but has given more problems. !!!!!!!!.
Any advice ?.

Yep donuts!!

Adjust the bushing higher so it does not size all the way down the neck. After the next firing the donuts should be blown to the outside of the neck. This is assuming a factory chamber with enough slop to allow that. Tightnecked chambers need not apply
Also assuming your brass is still soft enough and loads are hot enough to blow those donuts out.

My vote is always go for a Redding S series FL die right off the bat. Necksizing is dead JMHO ;D

 

[Clark]

I was using my Redding FL "S" die for a while, because it looked so nice and cost so much.

Then I got all my .223 dies and had a test where each die got a population of 10 pieces of brass and I cycled them over and over with each die keeping his brass each time.

SAMMI pressure is 55,000 psi for .223, but these handloads were 66,000 psi per Quickload, and the velocity was what Quickload predicted.

For case growth and concentricity in order from best at the top to worst at the bottom:
1) Lee Collet die
2) Forster sizer die with decapping stem pulled and neck honed out at the factory
3) RCBS sizer die with decapping stem pulled
4) Redding FL "S" die.

The Lee collet die looks like junk, so it gathered dust, while the Redding got used.
Don't think about how stupid I was, think about how I straightened it all out