Larger than MOA groups. What would you check first?

[ShtrRdy]

You asked for help there there are plenty of suggestions from the membership. Knowing what is good advice and bad advice is the tricky part.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Since it's summer I'm going to guess mirage.

 

[Webster]

Is the chronograph a must just to compare velocities? I’m still confused how that info would direct me to how to make my loads better.

You don't need a chronograph to know what your groups look like. Is your barrel free floated? Try things that don't cost money first. I would be shocked if a chronograph showed a big erratic ES. You can shoot small groups at 200 yards with an ES of 20-30. How good is your trigger pull. After 50 years of shooting I still have a problem with trigger feel at the range a 2 lb. trigger feels like i'm pulling 10 lbs. When I'm shooting at a varmint I don't even notice trigger pull resistance. It's mental thing. I think you said you shot good groups with another rifle? I guess I have been lucky I never had a barrel that shot flyers.

I think one of Eric Cortina's video's said flyers can be related to powder charge?

 

[Gun Man Dan]

You asked for help there there are plenty of suggestions from the membership. Knowing what is good advice and bad advice is the tricky part.

You are correct.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Since it's summer I'm going to guess mirage.

I’m sure that plays into it a lot. I’m sending my scope out for service so I won’t have pictures of any targets for a couple weeks.

 

[WSnyder]

the scope

And what scope might this be?

 

[Gun Man Dan]

And what scope might this be?

Vortex Venom

 

[WSnyder]

I didn’t read everything before I replied. I see it’s going back. In the meantime as suggested by others I’d try something else.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

I didn’t read everything before I replied. I see it’s going back. In the meantime as suggested by others I’d try something else.

Sadly I don’t have any other scopes that would compare. I’m not super social either so nobody I know has one to borrow.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

You don't need a chronograph to know what your groups look like. Is your barrel free floated? Try things that don't cost money first. I would be shocked if a chronograph showed a big erratic ES. You can shoot small groups at 200 yards with an ES of 20-30. How good is your trigger pull. After 50 years of shooting I still have a problem with trigger feel at the range a 2 lb. trigger feels like i'm pulling 10 lbs. When I'm shooting at a varmint I don't even notice trigger pull resistance. It's mental thing. I think you said you shot good groups with another rifle? I guess I have been lucky I never had a barrel that shot flyers.

I think one of Eric Cortina's video's said flyers can be related to powder charge?

The barrel is free floated in a Bergara BMP14 tactical style rifle. The trigger pull is 8oz and I’m pretty confident with it after some practice. One thing I’m going to rule out once my scope comes back is brass. I’m just going to get some Lapua brass and find a good work up somewhere with my materials and let some fly and see what happens. If I’m the issue, my wife will get that sorted out quick since she shoots better than me.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

It could be a number of things. Hornady ELD bullets like being up close or into the lands. You didn’t specify where the bullets are set with respect to the lands. I run mine at 0.005 off the lands and they shoot good. I also run a much hotter load. I think I run 44ish grains of IMR 4350.

I’m stuck at 2.8 OAL from my magazine. I can’t find any way around that.

 

[ShtrRdy]

I’m stuck at 2.8 OAL from my magazine. I can’t find any way around that.

I've got a 6mm Creedmoor that shoots the factory loaded Hornady Match ammunition with the 108 gr ELD-M bullet into 1/4moa 3-shot groups. (the caveat being this is lot number dependent) The reason I bring this up is that this ammunition has the ELD-M bullet seated to where it is jumping much more than 0.005"

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Watch fclass johns youtube video testing runout. It makes very little difference even in extreme cases. It might prevent you from shooting .0s and .1s, but I doubt it is the reason you can't shoot 1 moa.

 

[markm87]

Is the chronograph a must just to compare velocities? I’m still confused how that info would direct me to how to make my loads better.

Compare velocities and determine consistency. If, for instance, your flier yielded an unusual velocity, you'd know the ammo was to blame.

The big thing for me is if I'm seeing mediocre accuracy, and can see the velocity is like 2575 for something, I'd know that I'm probably way below my high node.

 

[Lefty2506]

I’m stuck at 2.8 OAL from my magazine. I can’t find any way around that.

Load them one round at a time.

 

[Dimner]

I did not read all the replies. Of those that I did, seems like the suggestions are all over the place from scopes, to reloading methods, to reloading components, to shooting technique. All which is valid because it could be anything.

No offense to anyone, but throw all that advice out the window for now.

You need to remove as many variables as possible.

Looks like you are working on your scope and eliminating that variable. Next I would eliminate all reloading aspects. If you have a no turn standard chamber. Spend 40-50 bucks and buy a box of Match 6.5 creed ammo. Even off sandbags, with a deathgrip hold, you should get an moa group at 100 yards as long as you manage your barrel temp.

If you still get odd ball results. It's the rifle. Now you have saved money and time because you didn't need to fuss with all kinds of new reloading equipment and component combinations.

If you get the results expected, now you saved a bunch of time and money looking for a mechanical rifle issue that isn't there.

My advice is, don't start in the weeds. You will be at this for years if you start checking individual things like primers, new dies, bullets, ignition, etc.

Isolate the 4 major variables that are important to achieving 1MOA. Rifle, reloading components, reloading techniques, and scope. After you get consistent 1MOA results, then there will be more variables to isolate as you try and shrink groups.

 

[Lefty2506]

Are you a troll for a living?

I think the point he may have been trying to make is that you really didn't provide much information. Is this your only rifle? What kind of groups are you capable of shooting at 100 yds with other good rifles? What size groups did this rifle produce before you dropped it? Describe what happened when you dropped it (how far did it fall, what part of the rifle hit when it landed, what did it land on? Did you just start shooting this bullet/powder combo or have you been shooting it for a while and things just went south on you? How many rounds does the barrel have on it?

That you only gave one charge weight for one powder indicates that this is a load that you've worked up in the past, and that has consistently produced decent groups out of your rifle. If that's the case, and everything went south as soon as you dropped it, then you're looking for something that could have been damaged. Scope, rings, mount, stock/bedding, action screws, ect.

Conversely, If you just started shooting this bullet with this powder, go back to a known load and see how it shoots. If it still shoots fine, then your scope and rifle are fine and you just need to finish doing the load development for this bullet. Find the most accurate powder charge for this powder, and if that's not good enough switch to a different powder.

I know a lot of folks have recommended a chronograph, and they have their place, but if you're load isn't near max pressure, I personally have no use for a chronograph at 100 yds. I have developed a plenty of loads that shoot 1/2" or better at 100 yds, but don't have very consistent velocities. Conversely, I've had loads that have SDs in the single digits that only shot about 1 MOA at 100 yds. If you were trying to work up a load that you wanted to shoot at 600 or 100 yards, it would be a different story. If you're only shooting 100 or 200 yds, a chronograph's main purpose is to help identify when you're approaching a max charge weight for your rifle.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

I think the point he may have been trying to make is that you really didn't provide much information. Is this your only rifle? What kind of groups are you capable of shooting at 100 yds with other good rifles? What size groups did this rifle produce before you dropped it? Describe what happened when you dropped it (how far did it fall, what part of the rifle hit when it landed, what did it land on? Did you just start shooting this bullet/powder combo or have you been shooting it for a while and things just went south on you? How many rounds does the barrel have on it?

That you only gave one charge weight for one powder indicates that this is a load that you've worked up in the past, and that has consistently produced decent groups out of your rifle. If that's the case, and everything went south as soon as you dropped it, then you're looking for something that could have been damaged. Scope, rings, mount, stock/bedding, action screws, ect.

Conversely, If you just started shooting this bullet with this powder, go back to a known load and see how it shoots. If it still shoots fine, then your scope and rifle are fine and you just need to finish doing the load development for this bullet. Find the most accurate powder charge for this powder, and if that's not good enough switch to a different powder.

I know a lot of folks have recommended a chronograph, and they have their place, but if you're load isn't near max pressure, I personally have no use for a chronograph at 100 yds. I have developed a plenty of loads that shoot 1/2" or better at 100 yds, but don't have very consistent velocities. Conversely, I've had loads that have SDs in the single digits that only shot about 1 MOA at 100 yds. If you were trying to work up a load that you wanted to shoot at 600 or 100 yards, it would be a different story. If you're only shooting 100 or 200 yds, a chronograph's main purpose is to help identify when you're approaching a max charge weight for your rifle.

I didn’t post much at first because I didn’t know what to post. There are so many variables that I could post about. I didn’t know where to start.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

I didn’t post much at first because I didn’t know what to post. There are so many variables that I could post about. I didn’t know where to start.

I’m going to buy some Lapua Brass. Any preference to small or large primer pocket? I have large primers but they are several years old. In the other hand small rifle primers are in stock almost everywhere. Is there general preference?

 

[Gun Man Dan]

I’m having issues with my groups being pretty big. I have a 24” shilen SS barrel in 6.5 creedmoor with a 1:8 twist. I shoot out to 100 yards 95% of the time. I do not have a chronograph, but I trust my reloading processs with 140gr Hornady ELD match and 39.5 gr of H4350 powder with CCI primers. Hornady brass that’s been fired 3 times now. I’m getting runout pretty consistent if 4 or 5 thousandths.

I’m at a loss. Where would you look first to make a difference?

Here is a picture from todays range. 10 ring is an 1”. Left is my hand loads 140 gr ELD Match. The rest are factory ELD Match 140 gr. Something is clearly wrong. I’m confident in every one of those shots too and they just won’t group.