Larger than MOA groups. What would you check first?

[RegionRat]

A lot to learn. Sending scope back to Vortex to triple check nothing broke when it was dropped awhile back (seemed fine). Will pick back up after that. Thanks for all of your help.

At a good club, they would have swapped a different scope on there in about 5 minutes and you would have eliminated that delay.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

is this a new problem for you?

if not, change powder and or bullet.

i had a top of the line custom gun built in 6.5 prc, it produced shotgun patterns with ramshot magnum and hornady 153 atips. i drove myself nuts for a day until i switched to n565. went from 2/3" groups at 100 yards to solid 1/2" groups.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

No not even close to what ignition is. Firing pin protrusion too much or too little, weak firing pin spring, dirty interior to bolt body, firing pin or spring rubbing in bolt body, bent firing pin, bolt shroud rubbing firing pin or receiver of rifle, rust, lack of lubrication, Oil that has dried out and is restriction pin movement. And someone that knows way more than I will have a bunch more.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

To the OP,..
1) Buy some, Peterson or, Lapua,.. 6.5 Creed Brass.
2) Buy a Set of, FORSTER,.. 6.5 Creed Dies ( "Runout" is,. .001 to .002 Max.,.. when set, properly )
My 130 gr. ELD-M's, are going into, the 3's ( almost Always, Sub, 1/2 MOA ) from, a Tikka T-3, SS, 24" bbl.
I use, a near Full Chg of StaBall 65 Powder @ 2,800+ FPS with, Fed 210-Match Pr's.
I can get, 5/8 MOA with, 143 gr. ELD-X's and StaBall 65
Over the Years, I've seem lots of "Problems" with, Poor Dies ( with, horrible Runout and Bad, Neck Tension ) and some, Junky Brass !
Me thinks that, less than $250.00 SOLVES your,.. Problems,. IF, NO issues with, the Rifle / Scope !

 

[Old Navy]

I’m going to send it back to Vortex for inspection.

Unless the eye piece is loose I would hold off on that.

 

[DShortt]

I'd suggest starting completely over and checking ALL of the basics and presume that absolutely NOTHING is not suspect. Starting with loose hardware, a barrel that isn't floated or a scope that's bad.

Cheap box store stuff and off-shelf ammo typically shoots better than what you're describing. So something very basic you've taken for granted is what I'd be suspicious of.

 

[Tommie]

all screws

Absolutely.

 

[jelenko]

All of the above advice plus...

For starters, lets check the grounding first... has this rig shot any other load recipe or ammo well in the past?

Are your expectations based on the rig has shot well in the past, or that you would like it to but it never has?

How about the gun's pilot? Have you ever shot this or any other rig where it made you happy?

You mention "flyers" but if they happen all the time they are not flyers. If you can't shoot 20 shots in a row that make you happy, then those are not flyers they are just part of the random distribution within your group that takes more than three or five shots to show up.

Has this rig made you happy in the past with this bullet or a different one?

There is a difference in the approach of an unknown setting when there is no basis versus the one where we know there is ground to be recovered by load development. There is also the process where the driver is still on the steep end of the learning curve.

To narrow down the discussion and get you better help, I would recommend you visit a club or range that has folks that shoot the game that interests you and get yourself adopted. Experienced shooters will be able to diagnose you and the rig better than all the typing in China.

This!!!!! ^^^^^

Without knowing the history and your 'starting points', there is no way to start suggesting fixes. Chickens running around with their heads cut off comes to mind.

Don't try different bullets, different powders yet. Describe what RegionRat asked first.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

All screws and that means too tight, not just loose.

I know Bidenomics means we are all broke, but this is a good justification for a spare scope. Something target oriented. You can use it for trouble shooting or load development on a hunting rig that will get a 3-9x40 or something similar. If your vortex is not made in japan that would certainly be near the top of my list....

 

[Gun Man Dan]

To the OP,..
1) Buy some, Peterson or, Lapua,.. 6.5 Creed Brass.
2) Buy a Set of, FORSTER,.. 6.5 Creed Dies ( "Runout" is,. .001 to .002 Max.,.. when set, properly )
My 130 gr. ELD-M's, are going into, the 3's ( almost Always, Sub, 1/2 MOA ) from, a Tikka T-3, SS, 24" bbl.
I use, a near Full Chg of StaBall 65 Powder @ 2,800+ FPS with, Fed 210-Match Pr's.
I can get, 5/8 MOA with, 143 gr. ELD-X's and StaBall 65
Over the Years, I've seem lots of "Problems" with, Poor Dies ( with, horrible Runout and Bad, Neck Tension ) and some, Junky Brass !
Me thinks that, less than $250.00 SOLVES your,.. Problems,. IF, NO issues with, the Rifle / Scope !

I just bought a Redding type S bushing die to replace my Hornady match die. I’d prefer to not have to buy another die. I think I’m getting run out from my Hornady match micrometer seating die, but don’t have a way to check runout on the case only to prove that. I’m using Hornady brass right now so maybe getting some Lapua brass would help some.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

The scope not being level doesn't affect group size. How good is your bench setup? rear bag, what do you use for a front rest. If you slide the rifle about an inch back and forth on the bags , how does the cross hair move across the target. I have to rotate my rear bag a little to get the cross hair to move vertical. I use a rear bag and a bipod. I have to reset the bag, bipod and gun after every shot. I easily shoot under 1/2". Good enough for GH hunting. I don't think I flinch when the gun goes off based on how I react with a several dud primers. I can see the cross hair move on the target while the gun goes off. I used to shoot small groups with a 7mm Rem magnum. Have somone you know is a good shooter shoot your gun at a few targets. I think a ckeek weld is bad technique on a bench gun. I live in Parma.

You live in Parma? Where do you go to shoot?

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Unless the eye piece is loose I would hold off on that.

I dropped the gun awhile back with the scope on and it seemed to be ok. Now that I’m having issues I think it might not be a bad idea to full out a scope issue.

 

[William Vogel]

It could be a number of things. Hornady ELD bullets like being up close or into the lands. You didn’t specify where the bullets are set with respect to the lands. I run mine at 0.005 off the lands and they shoot good. I also run a much hotter load. I think I run 44ish grains of IMR 4350.

 

[bucweet]

William Vogel is on to something
Try into the lands and work your way out

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I just bought a Redding type S bushing die to replace my Hornady match die. I’d prefer to not have to buy another die. I think I’m getting run out from my Hornady match micrometer seating die, but don’t have a way to check runout on the case only to prove that. I’m using Hornady brass right now so maybe getting some Lapua brass would help some.

Seat bullet just partially, then rotate the case in shell holder 180 degrees then finish seating . This might help with runout.
Not having a stable bench and rest will be your biggest contributor to large groups.

 

[M-61]

I’ll get 2 or 3 nice ones and then really strange fliers. Other times I won’t group any at all in a 5 shot group.

If possible put another scope on if you have one. I’m hesitant with scopes because of all I’ve had over many years I’ve had one bad one. POI change. Sold the rifle as I thought that was the problem. Really bad stupid move. So a scope change might tell you something.
That runout seems really excessive also.
Also if you have a friend that’s a decent shot let him shoot a few groups.

 

[dellet]

Every now and then with a new rifle or new to you cartridge, worse when it’s both, establishing a known baseline accuracy is a challenge. With something like the 6.5 Creedmoor, it should be pretty easy to find a “pet load”. One that everyone agrees shoots really well. “Shoot this load, and if that doesn’t work throw away the rifle” type of load.

When the loading process is in question, it’s more difficult, but with a popular cartridge, there will be a factory offering that has the same reputation. Federal Gold Medal Match is mentioned often for a lot of different cartridges.

Establishing a baseline, even if it’s 2 MOA, can be really helpful. It might be worth buying a box of known performing ammo. If everyone else is getting X MOA, and you’re getting 2X, it’s reasonable to question your loading or shooting skills, loading tools or shooting bench. If everything else you load and shoot is 1/4 X, the control ammo shoots groups twice what everyone else gets, then it’s reasonable to question the rifle.

The control ammo is very important to establishing that baseline and limiting headaches.

 

[STOMP442]

The more I read the more I think this is a Vortex issue. These scopes are not known for holding up well even when babied. Add a drop to the mix and a would almost put money on it not working properly. The 6.5 Creed is honesty one of the easiest to tune cartridges in existence. This is why people love them so much, they are easy to shoot and shoot well. Baring something seriously wrong with the gun it should shoot 1 moa or better with relative ease.

 

[K22]

I just bought a Redding type S bushing die to replace my Hornady match die. I’d prefer to not have to buy another die. I think I’m getting run out from my Hornady match micrometer seating die, but don’t have a way to check runout on the case only to prove that. I’m using Hornady brass right now so maybe getting some Lapua brass would help some.

Use the old roll on a smooth level surface. It will reveal gross runout.

As I said in my prior post, I never found run out to be a major issue and certainly not the culprit to produce "shotgun" pattern groups. Something more significant is going on when you get those kinds of groups. Incidentally, what kind of groups (dispersion) are you getting?

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Has ammo run out, no way to check runout? No proven reloading, rifle, accuracy data(target pics). Dropped the rifle/scope. What could be the accuracy problem (s)? Good luck. Maybe op uses 2x4 blocks to rest the barrel on.

Are you a troll for a living?