Larger than MOA groups. What would you check first?

[CamTheBam]

Seating depth...

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Seating depth...

Can you elaborate a little please? What do I change about the seating depth?

 

[DShortt]

How much for the rifle?

Perhaps I'll just relieve you of your burden and you can start anew.

Worried about seating depths when over 1 MOA at 100 yards. Wow.

 

[Clancy]

Skipping 4 pages of good responses to say that custom guns (good smiths) shooting over 1” have been the optic about 999 out of 1,000 times. The other one incident was a good friend’s dispenser dropping about every 3rd charge 10 grains light.

1” is easy to diagnose.

It’s the ones that shoot .15 then .4 then .2 then .6 that will make you rip your hair out.

 

[CamTheBam]

I'd nudge the seating depth in, in 0.003" increments and then shoot 3 cartridges at a paster. Repeat and observe the effect on target. If you've got a magazine, start at the longest COAL that it will accommodate.

 

[ShtrRdy]

The group on the far left looks about 1".

 

[DShortt]

I can't figure you guys out.

Accurate Shooter yet a rifle shooting over 1MOA at 100 yds and we're talking about seating depths.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

I can't figure you guys out.

Accurate Shooter yet a rifle shooting over 1MOA at 100 yds and we're talking about seating depths.

Hey man. I’m just trying to learn.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

I'd nudge the seating depth in, in 0.003" increments and then shoot 3 cartridges at a paster. Repeat and observe the effect on target. If you've got a magazine, start at the longest COAL that it will accommodate.

I will try that. Thank you.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

How much for the rifle?

Perhaps I'll just relieve you of your burden and you can start anew.

Worried about seating depths when over 1 MOA at 100 yards. Wow.

$699

 

[Fast14riot]

Here is a picture from todays range. 10 ring is an 1”. Left is my hand loads 140 gr ELD Match. The rest are factory ELD Match 140 gr. Something is clearly wrong. I’m confident in every one of those shots too and they just won’t group.

I assume you mean the 1 far left target only is your hand loads and the rest are factory ammo.

When you shot that group of hand loads, 1) was it a cold clean bore? 2) Was it shot from the magazine? 3) What order did the split in the group print, i.e. 2 touching, 1 out, 1 in, 1 back out, etm?

1) do you own a bore scope or can borrow one or use one at the LGS? If your cleaning method isn't effective, you could just be building a bigger issue the more you shoot it. Knowing you removed all copper, carbon ring, no crown issues is what you want to check.

2) if its a DBM I would buy/borrow another magazine, I've seen weird things show up on target in repeatable patterns that were eliminated by a magazine change.

3) more often than not, split groups that jump back and forth into 2 distict groups means you're on the edge of a node, usually on the under side of things. Developing a load on virgin brass that may have been grossly undersized, then fire formed it gains capacity and you're now below the node.

Good idea to get the scope checked by Vortex and then (in my personal opinion) sell it once you get it back. My immediate family (Dad, Mom, Bother) have had 4 vortex scopes fail that weren't even dropped. Twice an entire turret screwed out when dialing elevation at the range, one the erector tube came loose, and another had the actual reticle fail. Buy a Sightron, Leupold, or anything else thats a teir 1 brand.

Looking at the rest of your groups from factory ammo, it would suggest a sight issue, a very dirty barrel or bad crown.

 

[Lefty2506]

Hey man. I’m just trying to learn.

The reason he's saying that is that adjusting your seating depth is normally the last thing you do to really fine tune an already accurate load.

 

[Lefty2506]

I didn’t post much at first because I didn’t know what to post. There are so many variables that I could post about. I didn’t know where to start.

Totally understandable, but you still didn't answer any of the questions that I asked. We still don't know if this rifle used to shoot tiny bugholes with the 140gr ELD, and then things went bad, or if you've always had problems with this bullet and are now asking for help.

Based on the target you posted, I'd say your gun doesn't like the factory 140gr ELD Match ammo. That's not surprising. I've shot plenty of accurate rifles that didn't like most factory "match" ammo. That's why we reload. That hand load looks pretty respectable. It's not bench rest impressive, but it looks to be about .75 moa which isn't terrible. Would you consider that group to currently be "average" for this hand load? If so, can you describe briefly how you arrived at this hand load so we're not telling you to do things that you've already done as part of your load development?

Your earlier posts made it sound like you are able to shoot some groups like this, but you often get fliers that open the groups up substantially. If that's what is happening, I'd work on your brass. I know you're in the process of getting some Lapua brass which would alleviate any brass problems, but other options would be to anneal your existing brass and turn the necks to make them consistent. I'm also not a fan of Hornady dies. If I'm expecting to make accurate ammo for a cartridge, I start out with Forster or Redding dies. Running questionable brass through good dies will keep the brass from being worse, but running good brass through questionable dies will produce questionable brass.

 

[Chris Edmondson]

Sorry if already suggested; to help rule out reloading as the source of the problem, buy a box of decent factory ammo, see if the problem is still there, or goes away.

The two causes of erratic and poor groups I've experienced are, as others have said, scope, and extreme carbon fouling of the barrel crown. In my case, the scope was broken internally, once repaired the problem disappeared. The carbon fouling was discovered only after removing the brake, once cleaned the rifle shot real good again.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Sorry if already suggested; to help rule out reloading as the source of the problem, buy a box of decent factory ammo, see if the problem is still there, or goes away.

The two causes of erratic and poor groups I've experienced are, as others have said, scope, and extreme carbon fouling of the barrel crown. In my case, the scope was broken internally, once repaired the problem disappeared. The carbon fouling was discovered only after removing the brake, once cleaned the rifle shot real good again.

I use a suppressor so I miss the crown a lot. BUT I didn’t know it made that much of a difference. I did use some factory ammo and posted a picture of the targets. The consensus was that my rifle likely just didn’t like the match ammo I used. I dropped the scope off in the mail this morning.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Totally understandable, but you still didn't answer any of the questions that I asked. We still don't know if this rifle used to shoot tiny bugholes with the 140gr ELD, and then things went bad, or if you've always had problems with this bullet and are now asking for help.

Based on the target you posted, I'd say your gun doesn't like the factory 140gr ELD Match ammo. That's not surprising. I've shot plenty of accurate rifles that didn't like most factory "match" ammo. That's why we reload. That hand load looks pretty respectable. It's not bench rest impressive, but it looks to be about .75 moa which isn't terrible. Would you consider that group to currently be "average" for this hand load? If so, can you describe briefly how you arrived at this hand load so we're not telling you to do things that you've already done as part of your load development?

Your earlier posts made it sound like you are able to shoot some groups like this, but you often get fliers that open the groups up substantially. If that's what is happening, I'd work on your brass. I know you're in the process of getting some Lapua brass which would alleviate any brass problems, but other options would be to anneal your existing brass and turn the necks to make them consistent. I'm also not a fan of Hornady dies. If I'm expecting to make accurate ammo for a cartridge, I start out with Forster or Redding dies. Running questionable brass through good dies will keep the brass from being worse, but running good brass through questionable dies will produce questionable brass.

The gun used to shoot great with the old barrel but then it didn’t so I got a new barrel and things went shotgun pattern on most targets it felt like. The load I came up with a Hodgdon reloading magazine and dropped a couple grains from max load. The first target was cold bore and is usually how my targets look with an odd flier per 5 shot group. I do see a lot of two hole patterns out of my 5 shot groups which I never understood. I’m at work right now rushing to get a response out so I I’m missing anything just call me stupid and make note of it. I’ll clean the crown up real good too. I wasn’t aware that made a huge difference.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

I assume you mean the 1 far left target only is your hand loads and the rest are factory ammo.

When you shot that group of hand loads, 1) was it a cold clean bore? 2) Was it shot from the magazine? 3) What order did the split in the group print, i.e. 2 touching, 1 out, 1 in, 1 back out, etm?

1) do you own a bore scope or can borrow one or use one at the LGS? If your cleaning method isn't effective, you could just be building a bigger issue the more you shoot it. Knowing you removed all copper, carbon ring, no crown issues is what you want to check.

2) if its a DBM I would buy/borrow another magazine, I've seen weird things show up on target in repeatable patterns that were eliminated by a magazine change.

3) more often than not, split groups that jump back and forth into 2 distict groups means you're on the edge of a node, usually on the under side of things. Developing a load on virgin brass that may have been grossly undersized, then fire formed it gains capacity and you're now below the node.

Good idea to get the scope checked by Vortex and then (in my personal opinion) sell it once you get it back. My immediate family (Dad, Mom, Bother) have had 4 vortex scopes fail that weren't even dropped. Twice an entire turret screwed out when dialing elevation at the range, one the erector tube came loose, and another had the actual reticle fail. Buy a Sightron, Leupold, or anything else thats a teir 1 brand.

Looking at the rest of your groups from factory ammo, it would suggest a sight issue, a very dirty barrel or bad crown.

The crown is dirty as I didn’t know it was a huge deal from using my suppressor a lot. I clean the barrel down to metal with Patch Out. I do have a bite scope but don’t know what I’m looking for. Which currently makes that a stupid purchase. Haha. I do get split hole groups a lot from my 5 shot groups. The first target was cold bore and all shot from magazine. I don’t have access to another scope but I dropped it off in the mail this morning. The split group hit one hole, then the other, then back to the first, then back to the second. Super strange to me.

 

[M-61]

The split group hit one hole, then the other, then back to the first, then back to the second. Super strange to me.

Not if the scope is indeed damaged and consequently the POI is changing. Couple of shots together, then it moves and a couple of more together.
Lots of info posted that’s good.
Personally I wouldn’t spend one cent until I covered items on some of the posts.
I didn’t realize the rifle was dropped.
You’ve sent the scope out for possible repairs. What make? Just interested.

 

[Gun Man Dan]

Not if the scope is indeed damaged and consequently the POI is changing. Couple of shots together, then it moves and a couple of more together.
Lots of info posted that’s good.
Personally I wouldn’t spend one cent until I covered items on some of the posts.
I didn’t realize the rifle was dropped.
You’ve sent the scope out for possible repairs. What make? Just interested.

It’s a Vortex Venom. The rifle fell out of my vise from my table and landed in the top turret. It seemed to fire decent but I figured the scope survived and it was my hand loads that were the problem. I’m going to rule out the scope now. It’ll be a couple weeks but it’ll save some money pursuing other things that may not be the problem.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Since you are shooting 140's, have you thought about working up to the Carolina load? 44.3 gr of H4831sc. Your target suggests to me, your hand loads are better than factory ammo(a good thing). But the vertical dispersion(reloads) would lead me to a powder charge weight change(increase if safe). Are you reading winds, using flags while shooting?