Larger 7's for F-Class

[ShootDots]

I fully agree, but "dem is da rules". Those published numbers just do not add up. If their goal is to limit the distance of possible shots leaving the range "over the berm". They are saying that a 195 going 2813 will go just as far as a 180 going 3000. That just can't be right, can it? If true, then all the more reason to start shooting them whenever possible.

Steve

"Dems Da Rules" alright! I can understand 3" wide fore-ends, 22 pound weight limits and other "extraneous" rules to sort of "level the playing field". However what I can't understand is limits on caliber choice / bullet weight etc. for a class called F-Open! "Open" to me would indicate OPEN, would it not? We go to extreme lengths for better and better bullets in certain calibers to obtain the best accuracy / performance level we can get in regards to that particular caliber. I am VERY glad for these improvements. But why are there limitations on caliber and bullet weight? There are NO muzzle brakes for F-Open so I don't imagine people will be firing many 338's, The Chey-Tak cartridges etc.. Can somebody explain to me how a .300WSM shooting a 230 Berger at 2850 is somehow inherently "less dangerous" than a cartridge at or above .338 for F-Open? I think shooting something the size of a .375 Chey-Tac without some muzzle brake, would be so unpleasant that nobody would ever consider it>>>BUT what if they did? Why are there such limits in an "Open" category?

 

[BT1]

Now am starting to think that the published 195 gn Berger limits are wrong. Data would suggest maybe 2913, not 2813. That would be close to the differences in BC between the 180s and 195s. We are a long way until the matches and I suspect there will be more discussions.

Like you stated the limits on the 30 cal. 230 gr .717 bc bullets can be shot up to 2928fps. What the heck?

Steve

 

[Grimstod]

Grimstod,
I apologize. I hadn't finished my first cup of coffee and through my mental fog misunderstood your response.

Kindest regards,

Joe

No worries Joe. Happens to me to. Those question marks are hard to see sometimes. I was not at all upset.

 

[thomasholbrook43]

sound

I have an 8-twist, 32", Broughton. I have about 80 rounds down mine, so hopefully it speeds up, a LOT. 61.2 gr. of H1000 is about 2780 fps with both the 210M and the BR-2 primers, according to my LabRadar. QL tells me that's also the speed I'm supposed to be getting after I input all my data. I'm doing my charge testing at .020" off of touching the lands. I don't know what my freebore is, but at -20, the bearing surface-boat tail junction is about 2/3 down the neck. I've tested up to 63.5 gr. and that gave me a velocity of just under 2890 fps and no signs of pressure. I weigh my charges on an A&D 120, in case you're questioning my charge weights.

sounds like your reamer will work fine. my twist rate is a little different. I always go for the lower node. If pushed to hard it always seems that the es increases an the consistency goes away. waterline is all I shoot for. All my testing is done on target @ 1000yards if that is where I'm shooting. Good luck and do not give up, this case bullet combo is near perfect for 1000 yard game. Also I use A&D 120 I great scale!!!

 

[thomasholbrook43]

"Dems Da Rules" alright! I can understand 3" wide fore-ends, 22 pound weight limits and other "extraneous" rules to sort of "level the playing field". However what I can't understand is limits on caliber choice / bullet weight etc. for a class called F-Open! "Open" to me would indicate OPEN, would it not? We go to extreme lengths for better and better bullets in certain calibers to obtain the best accuracy / performance level we can get in regards to that particular caliber. I am VERY glad for these improvements. But why are there limitations on caliber and bullet weight? There are NO muzzle brakes for F-Open so I don't imagine people will be firing many 338's, The Chey-Tak cartridges etc.. Can somebody explain to me how a .300WSM shooting a 230 Berger at 2850 is somehow inherently "less dangerous" than a cartridge at or above .338 for F-Open? I think shooting something the size of a .375 Chey-Tac without some muzzle brake, would be so unpleasant that nobody would ever consider it>>>BUT what if they did? Why are there such limits in an "Open" category?

Yes Open. Guess we all will have to shoot .308 winchesters now.

 

[thomasholbrook43]

At that velocity with the heavier bullets, what do you expect the barrel life to be?
I am working with Krieger to get a barrel specked out now.
CW

get a 1-8.3 twist.

 

[Mulligan]

get a 1-8.3 twist.

Will that stabilize the heavies?

 

[ShootDots]

Will that stabilize the heavies?

It will most certainly stabilize the Berger 195's>>>>but I believe it will NOT stabilize the NEW Sierra 197.

 

[thomasholbrook43]

Will that stabilize the heavies?

use what you like but when you get to the fast (8 or less )twist the torque on the rifle becomes more of a problem. I use 1-8.25 or 1.8.3 for this caliber with 195's with great accuracy. Its not such a problem with smaller calibers. With heavy bullets and larger calibers the torque can be hard to manage.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Now am starting to think that the published 195 gn Berger limits are wrong. Data would suggest maybe 2913, not 2813. That would be close to the differences in BC between the 180s and 195s. We are a long way until the matches and I suspect there will be more discussions.

Like you stated the limits on the 30 cal. 230 gr .717 bc bullets can be shot up to 2928fps. What the heck?

Steve

Some limitations are natural, rather than imposed by man. Shooting ~80 rounds of 230 Hybrids at 2928 fps in a match, even out of a 22 lb Open rifle would be an eye-opening experience. Most would not choose to continue with that for a long period. Typical velocities for the 230 Hybrids in the .300 WSM (34" barrel, H4831sc) may be anywhere from just over 2800 fps to about 2875 fps. Much more and it becomes very difficult to manage the recoil consistently.

Fortunately, it seems as though most (although not all) of the maximum velocity values listed in the Table you provided the link to previously are above the velocities people are most commonly loading to for those specific bullets in F-Open rifles. They may not necessarily be over what those bullets could be loaded to in some cartridges, but apparently those restrictions will only affect a subset of shooters, probably not the majority. The .30 cal F-TR bullets have plenty of headroom; no one I have ever heard of is loading 200+ gr bullets at anywhere near 2900 fps. Bottom line is that as stated, "dem is da rules". If someone wants to load a particular bullet in a cartridge capable of pushing it faster than the value listed in the Table, they will be handicapped, no doubt about it.

 

[BT1]

Some limitations are natural, rather than imposed by man. Shooting ~80 rounds of 230 Hybrids at 2928 fps in a match, even out of a 22 lb Open rifle would be an eye-opening experience. Most would not choose to continue with that for a long period. Typical velocities for the 230 Hybrids in the .300 WSM (34" barrel, H4831sc) may be anywhere from just over 2800 fps to about 2875 fps. Much more and it becomes very difficult to manage the recoil consistently.

Fortunately, it seems as though most (although not all) of the maximum velocity values listed in the Table you provided the link to previously are above the velocities people are most commonly loading to for those specific bullets in F-Open rifles. They may not necessarily be over what those bullets could be loaded to in some cartridges, but apparently those restrictions will only affect a subset of shooters, probably not the majority. The .30 cal F-TR bullets have plenty of headroom; no one I have ever heard of is loading 200+ gr bullets at anywhere near 2900 fps. Bottom line is that as stated, "dem is da rules". If someone wants to load a particular bullet in a cartridge capable of pushing it faster than the value listed in the Table, they will be handicapped, no doubt about it.

Scott did confirm that the velocities listed are correct. Agree, all but the limit on the 195 Bergers make all the sense in the world. Man you sure are right about shooting 230s anywhere near that fast. I have pushed 230s in my 300 wsm as hard as I could safely and proved to myself that I could not shoot it accurately. I will look at running the 180s out of my rsaum to see if they will shoot well at a higher node. Doubt it will be at the 3000 fps limit

Steve

 

[memilanuk]

But why are there limitations on caliber and bullet weight? There are NO muzzle brakes for F-Open so I don't imagine people will be firing many 338's, The Chey-Tak cartridges etc.. Can somebody explain to me how a .300WSM shooting a 230 Berger at 2850 is somehow inherently "less dangerous" than a cartridge at or above .338 for F-Open? I think shooting something the size of a .375 Chey-Tac without some muzzle brake, would be so unpleasant that nobody would ever consider it>>>BUT what if they did? Why are there such limits in an "Open" category?

Unfortunately, I can't point you to the *exact* place that the limitations came from. It is my understanding, though, that the limits have to do (in part) with the downrange safety envelope for many ranges. Yes, I know, we all plan on putting shots solidly in the middle of the target (they tend to score better that way) and thus into the back stop. Yippee. But the safety envelope or 'fan' for ranges often have to take into account what happens if there is some sort of accident, and the gun discharges in such a way as to send a round down range... over the berm. How far is it going to go? How far is it going to remain lethal? We all know that bigger, heavier bullets with higher BC tend to hang onto that energy longer, further out than lighter bullets (speaking in broad terms here, not interested in picking nits over some specific edge case). Thus the limits on how big of a caliber you really need to shoot 1k, start to make some sense. Now, as to whether that should be a range-by-range restriction, or if there is some other way to manage it better... fair question.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The limitations are not equal to kinetic energy at the muzzle (1/2 MV*2). It looks as though they've added in the relative drag and resultant velocity loss at some distance using the G1 BC to normalize bullets of equal weight but with different BC.

That whole MV test procedure of disassembling a loaded round, weighing the bullet, and getting velocities for the remaining 3 test rounds seems like an enormous burden on the staff at the match (as compared to simply weighing rifles). I'm betting they will be quite pleased once the process is finished and they can get on with the match.

 

[TZaun]

I gave up trying to get H1000 to work with the 195 Berger. ESs were staying really high. I switched to IMR 7828 and things are coming together very nice. I found a node at 57.7 gr. (~2805 fps) and 59.7 gr. (~2910 fps) with 210M primers. I did seating depth tests at both and the 57.7 shows a little tighter groups overall so I'm going to go with that and .014" off the lands. 59.7 was pushing max. I could see faint ejector marks on the cases and it had significantly more recoil. Both charges had many 3-shot groups in the single digits for ES. Had one as low as 3 and a few at 4 and 5. Anybody know how bad 7828 is with temperature sensitivity? I'm guessing it's bad as I don't ever hear of anybody using it in competition.

 

[ShootDots]

I gave up trying to get H1000 to work with the 195 Berger. ESs were staying really high. I switched to IMR 7828 and things are coming together very nice. I found a node at 57.7 gr. (~2805 fps) and 59.7 gr. (~2910 fps) with 210M primers. I did seating depth tests at both and the 57.7 shows a little tighter groups overall so I'm going to go with that and .014" off the lands. 59.7 was pushing max. I could see faint ejector marks on the cases and it had significantly more recoil. Both charges had many 3-shot groups in the single digits for ES. Had one as low as 3 and a few at 4 and 5. Anybody know how bad 7828 is with temperature sensitivity? I'm guessing it's bad as I don't ever hear of anybody using it in competition.

There are a few "IMR" powders that are not too bad. IMR 8208XBR is the first IMR powder that IS stable. But IMR 4895, 4320, 4831 and 7828 are not the least touchy! I don't know if they are the equal of the Hodgdon "Extreme" line>>>but they are pretty good.
I forgot to mention>>>>you could try RL-26 with those 195's. It is just about the same burn rate as H1000 and may be a viable alternative>>>>and you should get your high velocity back!

 

[TZaun]

There are a few "IMR" powders that are not too bad. IMR 8208XBR is the first IMR powder that IS stable. But IMR 4895, 4320, 4831 and 7828 are not the least touchy! I don't know if they are the equal of the Hodgdon "Extreme" line>>>but they are pretty good.
I forgot to mention>>>>you could try RL-26 with those 195's. It is just about the same burn rate as H1000 and may be a viable alternative>>>>and you should get your high velocity back!

I finally found some yesterday. As soon as it gets here I will be trying that also. I'll let you know how that turns out.

 

[CJ6]

I honestly feel that the 280ai is a better choice than the 284. I think accuracy would be equal, brass would last longer, barrels would last longer, and you could run the 2850 node at lower pressure.

Alex....Is the 280AI better than the 284 Shehane ? What would make the 280 brass last longer (Win vs Lap)? Barrel life ? IME powder charges wouldn't be that much different. I would like your thoughts on this.

 

[thomasholbrook43]

I've started load development (100 yards) and not sure what to think yet. I charge tested up to 63.5 grains of H1000, which is about 2887 fps with the 195 Berger. ES was 20. However, 63.2 gr. was 2884 fps, but 56 ES!! This was with BR-2 primers and only .001" neck tension. I had previously tested up to 62.0 with both the 210M and the BR-2. In those tests, the 210M gave me slightly better ES, but the groups were noticeably smaller with the BR-2. My ES is really high across the board, but my groups are surprisingly small considering how high the ES is. My ESs range from 20 to 56. Will the ES tighten up that much by continuing on with a seating depth test and then a neck tension test? Or should I try a magnum primer and hope that ignites the powder more consistently? I've read so much about how ESs get the lowest when you're right up at max pressure. You can't dump enough H1000 in a 7 SAUM case (and seat a bullet) to reach max pressure. Is H1000 a little too slow? QL shows a node at about 65.8 gr. of H1000 (2990 fps), but when I put that much into a case to see what it would look like, it's up into the neck. I don't like compressed loads, and that's REALLY compressed. That load would be a touch over max pressure (66,600 PSI).

I've never been a big believer in QL. More than likely I'm doing something wrong, but my best shooting loads NEVER come close to what QL and the node chart say should happen. In this instance, I looked and my thoughts are that 2875 fps is about exactly in between 2 nodes? If I'm doing things correctly, I come up with 61.1 gr. and that should be about 2775 fps and line up with a node for a 32" barrel. On paper, I can see where all my holes flatten out and stay on the same plane from 62.9 to 63.5. From 63.2 to 63.5, my velocity only gained 3 fps. To me, that looks like a node, on paper. I'm probably going to do another test from 62.5 to 64.0 and see what things look like again and go from there. Any suggestions from the "been there, done that" crowd?

Hello its thomashobrook43, If you are still having trouble getting 195's to shoot. Shoot me a email at thomasholbrook40@gmail.com. i will try to help you. This cartridge is very easy to load for. i have reamers for 180 class and 195 class. An loads that are proven in several barrrls.

 

[TZaun]

Hello its thomashobrook43, If you are still having trouble getting 195's to shoot. Shoot me a email at thomasholbrook40@gmail.com. i will try to help you. This cartridge is very easy to load for. i have reamers for 180 class and 195 class. An loads that are proven in several barrrls.

Very much appreciated Thomas. Right now it looks like my barrel just doesn't like H1000. The 7828 shoots very well with the 195. I'm anxious to give RL26 a try when it gets here. Only hope I have with the RL26 is that my seating depth window gets a little wider. I don't think there's any way possible the ESs could get any better.

 

[TZaun]

>>>>and you should get your high velocity back!

Ben, I ran the numbers through Berger's calculator and used the 2805 and 2910 velocities I have with the 7828. Using 5 MPH for a missed wind call, there's only .13 MOA difference between the two. Then I plugged in the 130 VLD I use in my 6.5x47 @ 2875 and that's 1 MOA more than the 195 @ 2805. Hopefully I pick up some points at 1,000 using the 195. Lord knows I need 'em!!!