Larger 7's for F-Class

[dkhunt14]

I usually use 210 in a 300WSM with 210 vld. But I believe in, if the case has more then 65 grains or a powder slower then 4350, a magnum primer is better. Also if cold weather a magnum is better. Matt

 

[ShootDots]

Ben, what primers, do you guys find, work best for the 195s and 180s? I've read that some guys get great results with non-Magnum primers in the SAUM. Wondering if that's only for the 180s and faster powder?? My gut says 61 gr. of H1000 would need a Magnum primer to ignite consistently.

I am using Wolf primers and the one guy I know is using Fed 210's...ALL non-magnum..

 

[thomasholbrook43]

Ben, what primers, do you guys find, work best for the 195s and 180s? I've read that some guys get great results with non-Magnum primers in the SAUM. Wondering if that's only for the 180s and faster powder?? My gut says 61 gr. of H1000 would need a Magnum primer to ignite consistently.

Federal 210's work just fine

 

[thomasholbrook43]

Federal 210's work just fine

I have built 5 saums in the last 2 month's. All have shot quite well with standard 210 primers running in the 2875fps range. with H1000. for the new larger 195-197 class bullets i believe this case is near perfect. Having a long throat is required to get these velocities.

 

[Joe R]

Federal 210's work just fine

The BR2s are also working well for me.

Joe

 

[Mulligan]

I have built 5 saums in the last 2 month's. All have shot quite well with standard 210 primers running in the 2875fps range. with H1000. for the new larger 195-197 class bullets i believe this case is near perfect. Having a long throat is required to get these velocities.

At that velocity with the heavier bullets, what do you expect the barrel life to be?
I am working with Krieger to get a barrel specked out now.
CW

 

[TZaun]

I have built 5 saums in the last 2 month's. All have shot quite well with standard 210 primers running in the 2875fps range. with H1000. for the new larger 195-197 class bullets i believe this case is near perfect. Having a long throat is required to get these velocities.

I've started load development (100 yards) and not sure what to think yet. I charge tested up to 63.5 grains of H1000, which is about 2887 fps with the 195 Berger. ES was 20. However, 63.2 gr. was 2884 fps, but 56 ES!! This was with BR-2 primers and only .001" neck tension. I had previously tested up to 62.0 with both the 210M and the BR-2. In those tests, the 210M gave me slightly better ES, but the groups were noticeably smaller with the BR-2. My ES is really high across the board, but my groups are surprisingly small considering how high the ES is. My ESs range from 20 to 56. Will the ES tighten up that much by continuing on with a seating depth test and then a neck tension test? Or should I try a magnum primer and hope that ignites the powder more consistently? I've read so much about how ESs get the lowest when you're right up at max pressure. You can't dump enough H1000 in a 7 SAUM case (and seat a bullet) to reach max pressure. Is H1000 a little too slow? QL shows a node at about 65.8 gr. of H1000 (2990 fps), but when I put that much into a case to see what it would look like, it's up into the neck. I don't like compressed loads, and that's REALLY compressed. That load would be a touch over max pressure (66,600 PSI).

I've never been a big believer in QL. More than likely I'm doing something wrong, but my best shooting loads NEVER come close to what QL and the node chart say should happen. In this instance, I looked and my thoughts are that 2875 fps is about exactly in between 2 nodes? If I'm doing things correctly, I come up with 61.1 gr. and that should be about 2775 fps and line up with a node for a 32" barrel. On paper, I can see where all my holes flatten out and stay on the same plane from 62.9 to 63.5. From 63.2 to 63.5, my velocity only gained 3 fps. To me, that looks like a node, on paper. I'm probably going to do another test from 62.5 to 64.0 and see what things look like again and go from there. Any suggestions from the "been there, done that" crowd?

 

[dkhunt14]

I've started load development (100 yards) and not sure what to think yet. I charge tested up to 63.5 grains of H1000, which is about 2887 fps with the 195 Berger. ES was 20. However, 63.2 gr. was 2884 fps, but 56 ES!! This was with BR-2 primers and only .001" neck tension. I had previously tested up to 62.0 with both the 210M and the BR-2. In those tests, the 210M gave me slightly better ES, but the groups were noticeably smaller with the BR-2. My ES is really high across the board, but my groups are surprisingly small considering how high the ES is. My ESs range from 20 to 56. Will the ES tighten up that much by continuing on with a seating depth test and then a neck tension test? Or should I try a magnum primer and hope that ignites the powder more consistently? I've read so much about how ESs get the lowest when you're right up at max pressure. You can't dump enough H1000 in a 7 SAUM case (and seat a bullet) to reach max pressure. Is H1000 a little too slow? QL shows a node at about 65.8 gr. of H1000 (2990 fps), but when I put that much into a case to see what it would look like, it's up into the neck. I don't like compressed loads, and that's REALLY compressed. That load would be a touch over max pressure (66,600 PSI).

I've never been a big believer in QL. More than likely I'm doing something wrong, but my best shooting loads NEVER come close to what QL and the node chart say should happen. In this instance, I looked and my thoughts are that 2875 fps is about exactly in between 2 nodes? If I'm doing things correctly, I come up with 61.1 gr. and that should be about 2775 fps and line up with a node for a 32" barrel. On paper, I can see where all my holes flatten out and stay on the same plane from 62.9 to 63.5. From 63.2 to 63.5, my velocity only gained 3 fps. To me, that looks like a node, on paper. I'm probably going to do another test from 62.5 to 64.0 and see what things look like again and go from there. Any suggestions from the "been there, done that" crowd?

I would try a long drop tube and pour slow to get the powder level down in the case. You could try magnum price range. It should work with the H1000. Matt

 

[TZaun]

I would try a long drop tube and pour slow to get the powder level down in the case. You could try magnum price range. It should work with the H1000. Matt

By going to a magnum primer will also decrease the amount of powder needed to get to the next node. Seems to me, in the past, going to a magnum primer will decrease the charge by about a grain to get the same velocity. I'll try that along with the longer tube.

 

[TZaun]

Here's what QL and the Barrel Life Estimator tell me:

View attachment 1000299

Joe, what does that gizmo tell you for barrel life if you use 2775 fps?

 

[Joe R]

Joe, what does that gizmo tell you for barrel life if you use 2775 fps?

I need to make changes to the above estimate. The Powder Heat Potential is for H4831sc not H1000.

By the way, if you're thinking of building a 7SAUMto use with the Berger 195s, Thomas Holbrook has THE REAMER ( see thomasholbrook43 )

Below is the corrected estimates. Enjoy.

Joe

 

[Grimstod]

I know the Dasher has performed very well at 1000 y and the big 7s do good to. Why are there no 6.5s that are favored? Is it just because there is no good brass thats the perfect fit? 6.5-284 i know is to overbore. Lots of people think the 6.5x47 is underpowered for 1000 although it has set an IBS record at 1000. Are there no 6.5 cases that have a capacity between 6.5-294 and the 47L?

 

[thomasholbrook43]

I've started load development (100 yards) and not sure what to think yet. I charge tested up to 63.5 grains of H1000, which is about 2887 fps with the 195 Berger. ES was 20. However, 63.2 gr. was 2884 fps, but 56 ES!! This was with BR-2 primers and only .001" neck tension. I had previously tested up to 62.0 with both the 210M and the BR-2. In those tests, the 210M gave me slightly better ES, but the groups were noticeably smaller with the BR-2. My ES is really high across the board, but my groups are surprisingly small considering how high the ES is. My ESs range from 20 to 56. Will the ES tighten up that much by continuing on with a seating depth test and then a neck tension test? Or should I try a magnum primer and hope that ignites the powder more consistently? I've read so much about how ESs get the lowest when you're right up at max pressure. You can't dump enough H1000 in a 7 SAUM case (and seat a bullet) to reach max pressure. Is H1000 a little too slow? QL shows a node at about 65.8 gr. of H1000 (2990 fps), but when I put that much into a case to see what it would look like, it's up into the neck. I don't like compressed loads, and that's REALLY compressed. That load would be a touch over max pressure (66,600 PSI).

I've never been a big believer in QL. More than likely I'm doing something wrong, but my best shooting loads NEVER come close to what QL and the node chart say should happen. In this instance, I looked and my thoughts are that 2875 fps is about exactly in between 2 nodes? If I'm doing things correctly, I come up with 61.1 gr. and that should be about 2775 fps and line up with a node for a 32" barrel. On paper, I can see where all my holes flatten out and stay on the same plane from 62.9 to 63.5. From 63.2 to 63.5, my velocity only gained 3 fps. To me, that looks like a node, on paper. I'm probably going to do another test from 62.5 to 64.0 and see what things look like again and go from there. Any suggestions from the "been there, done that" crowd?

what type of barrel do you have? twist? krieger? Bartlien? How long? The 7 saum really needs 32" blank to push the 195's to a comfortable 2875fps. A load of 61.10 grs has worked in five different barrels for me. when new they all started out around 2835-45fps and sped up to 2865-2875 range after 150 rounds or so. With this powder you should see around 1600 good preforming rounds. Seating depth has ranged from 15 off to 10 in. Do a seating depth with this load and some where it should shoot quiet well. You may have to change charge weights by .3 grns or so one way or the other do to lot variations of powder.

 

[Grimstod]

Grimstod,
I respectfully disagree. There is a 6.5 caliber between the 6.5x47 and the 6.5x284 that shoots rediculously well, easy to tune and has lots of brass choices.

I build a 260AI about 4 months ago and necked down the Lapua 308 Palma brass with outstanding results. You can read about my experience in this thread http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/my-new-260-ai-build.3909184/

Regards,

Joe

I have no idea why you are disagreing with me. I was not saying there is no such cartridge. Rather i was asking if there was one.

 

[TZaun]

what type of barrel do you have? twist? krieger? Bartlien? How long? The 7 saum really needs 32" blank to push the 195's to a comfortable 2875fps. A load of 61.10 grs has worked in five different barrels for me. when new they all started out around 2835-45fps and sped up to 2865-2875 range after 150 rounds or so. With this powder you should see around 1600 good preforming rounds. Seating depth has ranged from 15 off to 10 in. Do a seating depth with this load and some where it should shoot quiet well. You may have to change charge weights by .3 grns or so one way or the other do to lot variations of powder.

I have an 8-twist, 32", Broughton. I have about 80 rounds down mine, so hopefully it speeds up, a LOT. 61.2 gr. of H1000 is about 2780 fps with both the 210M and the BR-2 primers, according to my LabRadar. QL tells me that's also the speed I'm supposed to be getting after I input all my data. I'm doing my charge testing at .020" off of touching the lands. I don't know what my freebore is, but at -20, the bearing surface-boat tail junction is about 2/3 down the neck. I've tested up to 63.5 gr. and that gave me a velocity of just under 2890 fps and no signs of pressure. I weigh my charges on an A&D 120, in case you're questioning my charge weights.

 

[BT1]

Just as a reminder, those of us that are entered at the 2017 Canadian Nationals and the Worlds, the velocity limit for the 195gn 7mm Berger is limited to 2813fps.

https://media.wix.com/ugd/b84a4b_e46e12a101fc49d3a8ae4ace4ab743ef.pdf

I do have an 8.5 tw, 32", 7rsaum throated for the 195, that really shoots with the 195s, but they are running way faster that 2813. They now would seem to offer no advantage over shooting the 180s at up to 3007 fps.

Makes me rethink what rifles to bring. Maybe the straight 284 and the 300WSM shooting the 210s or 215. I can not handle the 230s

Steve

 

[dkhunt14]

Just as a reminder, those of us that are entered at the 2017 Canadian Nationals and the Worlds, the velocity limit for the 195gn 7mm Berger is limited to 2813fps.

https://media.wix.com/ugd/b84a4b_e46e12a101fc49d3a8ae4ace4ab743ef.pdf



Steve

That to me is like having a corvette and putting a governor on it. LOL. MATT

 

[Kyle Schultz]

what type of barrel do you have? twist? krieger? Bartlien? How long? The 7 saum really needs 32" blank to push the 195's to a comfortable 2875fps. A load of 61.10 grs has worked in five different barrels for me. when new they all started out around 2835-45fps and sped up to 2865-2875 range after 150 rounds or so. With this powder you should see around 1600 good preforming rounds. Seating depth has ranged from 15 off to 10 in. Do a seating depth with this load and some where it should shoot quiet well. You may have to change charge weights by .3 grns or so one way or the other do to lot variations of powder.

I'm running a 7-300WSM which is very similar in case capacity to the SAUM. 32" Bartlein 5R 8.3tw. Freebore is 0.165".

With the Sierra 183s, my best load is 62.7gr H1000 yielding 2887 fps. After 806 rds, I've only seen 0.004" of throat erosion using the Wheeler method. So I am optimistic I will reach your 1700-1800 round estimate.

I have tested the Berger 195 a couple of times. Best H1000 load I found was 63.1gr yielding 2888 fps but I have stayed with the 183 SMK for competition. I have a new 8tw barrel in the works and plan to extensively test the 197 SMK once it is installed.

Good luck!

 

[Joe R]

I have no idea why you are disagreing with me. I was not saying there is no such cartridge. Rather i was asking if there was one.

Grimstod,
I apologize. I hadn't finished my first cup of coffee and through my mental fog misunderstood your response.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[BT1]

That to me is like having a corvette and putting a governor on it. LOL. MATT

I fully agree, but "dem is da rules". Those published numbers just do not add up. If their goal is to limit the distance of possible shots leaving the range "over the berm". They are saying that a 195 going 2813 will go just as far as a 180 going 3000. That just can't be right, can it? If true, then all the more reason to start shooting them whenever possible.

Steve