large rifle primers?

[MildBill]

Any relative ranking on favorites of the following large rifle primers? Or is this one of those situations where you let the load/ rifle tell you what it likes?

winchester lr

Remington 9 1/2

Federal 210 Gold Medal Match

Thanks

 

[vtmarmot]

People with more experience than me tell me that they cannot tell the difference between plain Federal 210's and the 210 Match. Same with the 205's. That being said, there seems to be quite a difference in how the different brands will affect your load. I have also heard that the difference between match and regular primers is that the match primers get more inspections.

 

[WyleWD]

Let your rifle tell you. Personally I think that the Rem 9 1/2 primers give the most consistency. Therefore in times where others have primers all hoarded up.... I keep a comfortable supply of Remingtons on hand. WD

 

[brian427cobra]

My 308Win load is with 210/210m primers, my 260Rem load is with CCi 200/BR2 primers, my targets and chronograph told which one, 210s shoot pretty good in my 260, but the CCi primers always had smaller spreads and smaller groups, just the opposite in 308.

 

[ShootDots]

Several years ago I spoke with a "tech/ service person" from Blount International. They said that ALL primers, theirs and competitors options basically only make "regular primers"... The difference between a "regular primer" and a "Benchrest Model" of sorts, is nothing more than the addition of more extensive quality control. They merely LOOK for any possible "imperfections" in "regular" primers and if they VISUALLY see "better" primers, they become some form of a "benchrest" style primer! My personal experiences have borne this out by interchangeably using "BR" or GM and their "regular counterparts">>>ZERO difference in velocity, E.S. or accuracy>>> ZERO difference!

 

[searcher]

I have also heard, as probably a lot of us have - that the primers are just seperated by the level of quality control. I have also seen a lot of evidence contrary to that as well though. The coloring difference of the priming compounds between the same "regular" and "match" primer from the same manufacturers, the reported difference in the cup thicknesses, the extra printing on the cup (like the C.C.I.'s match). I think there really is more to it in most cases. That said - the best primer is the one that shoots best in your rifle with your load...

 

[bozo699]

Several years ago I spoke with a "tech/ service person" from Blount International. They said that ALL primers, theirs and competitors options basically only make "regular primers"... The difference between a "regular primer" and a "Benchrest Model" of sorts, is nothing more than the addition of more extensive quality control. They merely LOOK for any possible "imperfections" in "regular" primers and if they VISUALLY see "better" primers, they become some form of a "benchrest" style primer! My personal experiences have borne this out by interchangeably using "BR" or GM and their "regular counterparts">>>ZERO difference in velocity, E.S. or accuracy>>> ZERO difference!

I have also heard, as probably a lot of us have - that the primers are just seperated by the level of quality control. I have also seen a lot of evidence contrary to that as well though. The coloring difference of the priming compounds between the same "regular" and "match" primer from the same manufacturers, the reported difference in the cup thicknesses, the extra printing on the cup (like the C.C.I.'s match). I think there really is more to it in most cases. That said - the best primer is the one that shoots best in your rifle with your load...

100% incorrect statements right there!!! The qc on CCI primers are exactly the same, there is a lot of differences between the cci small rifle br primer and the the 400's . There is almost no difference in the 200 over the Large rifle B/R primers. However the color difference your seeing is not the mix at all its different colored foil, you can't see the mix,..which is all about the same shade of green!....That's all.
Wayne.

 

[WyleWD]

No difference in FPS, extreme spread or accuracy???

The other day I was double checking my loads and decided to try simply switching primers. Powder charges, bullets, seating, cases, rate of fire, etc were all the same on the two loads below. Only difference was the primer. And by the way Brand "X" primer below is a "BR" type primer..... "Y" is just a regular LR primer. And yes, load 2 had a decidedly smaller group at 200yds. WD


Load #1 Load #2
Brand"X" primer Brand "Y" primer
1) 3204 fps 6) 3204 fps
2) 3178 7) 3208
3) 3190 #8) 3208
4) 3166 9) 3205
5) 3175 10) 3180

Avg =3182 Avg=3201
ES= 48 ES=28

 

[Nomad47]

I see the same thing, WyleWD. And worse when switching between a LR and a LRM primers. I have to reduce the magnum primer load by at least .5 grains to keep velocity about the same.

 

[searcher]

I might not be so fast to call anyone 100% wrong Bozo699 on this primer issue (but I sure could be?!) The common belief that a primer is a primer (seperated by quality control alone) got me thinking about how much I spend extra on match primers. Not as bad as the difference between Ely Match and Ely 10X .22 ammo which I have been told is the same except for quality control ($12.00 VS. $24.00 per box) Anyway- I looked at various manufacturers websites to gain more clarity for my own satisfaction. On C.C.I.'s website, they state their BR primers are more accurate because they:
1) Use specially selected cups - whichare then noted with the "B" indent on the face (which I had mentioned prior). You can clearly see the "B" on the primer.
2) Use specially selected anvils.
3)Have ther most skilled person running the mixture application process.

So far, it does appear that this is merely stepped up quality control to arrive at a benchrest primer - but NOT as a result of merely looking at batches of primers and picking out the good ones. It is a multi-phased Q.C. situation, at least with C.C.I. (maybe this is why theirs cost so much more than everone else?)

Now - what C.C.I. does NOT say is whether their cups or anvils are different, the priming mix is different and whether more of the mix (or less) is used from that of their regular primer. So I kept looking around a bit. I found a very interesting bunch of charts made up of varying sources (who knows whether to believe any) regarding burn rate, interchangeability, etc. Worth looking at. Go to Bing Remington Primer Chart on your search engine. I don't know how to forward this. Of particular interest was a chart which listed 9 common primers and the burn from "hot to cold" in ascending order. The hottest was Federal 205, yet the Federal #200 was #7. The Remington 7 1/2 was listed #2, while their 6 1/2 primer was #8.

Then, there was another chart for primer interchangeability - and the "common" primer of each manufacturer was NOT listed as the best replacement for any of the benchrest primers. This chart was from yet another source which lends credence to the fact that the benchrest primers are NOTprimers may differ in burn temp.

So - I'm personally still not sold they are "all the same". I do believe that many primers can be substituted (just as brass sometimes can) and still have about the same performance. Sometimes variables come out to the same conclusion.....

 

[ShootDots]

Her Searcher.. When I called the "engineering / tech" person from Blount, it was HIS assertion that it (the difference between a regular primer and a BR primer) is merely the difference in quality control. He was the one who stated that is was just another "quality step" in "looking" for the best primers. That was maybe 10 years ago? Maybe they have changed since then>>>maybe HIS assertion was wrong in the first place>>>I don't know. BUT this is what I do know: "When I "run dry" of some sort of "BR Primer" like the BR-2 / Br-4, OR the Fed 205 / 210 "GM's" I have substituted the "regular" primer and found no difference. As a matter of fact, what I did one time since I was VERY low on BOTH BR-4's and CCI 200's I simply "mixed" both of them together (completely random) and went to a match with that concoction! It was a 300 F-Open match and if memory serves me correctly, I shot a 597-42X score! Not bad for "substitution"! At any rate, I was just stating what I was told>>>and I just stated what I did..

 

[bozo699]

I might not be so fast to call anyone 100% wrong Bozo699 on this primer issue (but I sure could be?!) The common belief that a primer is a primer (seperated by quality control alone) got me thinking about how much I spend extra on match primers. Not as bad as the difference between Ely Match and Ely 10X .22 ammo which I have been told is the same except for quality control ($12.00 VS. $24.00 per box) Anyway- I looked at various manufacturers websites to gain more clarity for my own satisfaction. On C.C.I.'s website, they state their BR primers are more accurate because they:
1) Use specially selected cups - whichare then noted with the "B" indent on the face (which I had mentioned prior). You can clearly see the "B" on the primer.
2) Use specially selected anvils.
3)Have ther most skilled person running the mixture application process.

So far, it does appear that this is merely stepped up quality control to arrive at a benchrest primer - but NOT as a result of merely looking at batches of primers and picking out the good ones. It is a multi-phased Q.C. situation, at least with C.C.I. (maybe this is why theirs cost so much more than everone else?)

Now - what C.C.I. does NOT say is whether their cups or anvils are different, the priming mix is different and whether more of the mix (or less) is used from that of their regular primer. So I kept looking around a bit. I found a very interesting bunch of charts made up of varying sources (who knows whether to believe any) regarding burn rate, interchangeability, etc. Worth looking at. Go to Bing Remington Primer Chart on your search engine. I don't know how to forward this. Of particular interest was a chart which listed 9 common primers and the burn from "hot to cold" in ascending order. The hottest was Federal 205, yet the Federal #200 was #7. The Remington 7 1/2 was listed #2, while their 6 1/2 primer was #8.

Then, there was another chart for primer interchangeability - and the "common" primer of each manufacturer was NOT listed as the best replacement for any of the benchrest primers. This chart was from yet another source which lends credence to the fact that the benchrest primers are NOTprimers may differ in burn temp.

So - I'm personally still not sold they are "all the same". I do believe that many primers can be substituted (just as brass sometimes can) and still have about the same performance. Sometimes variables come out to the same conclusion.....

Mr. Searcher,
I am glad you believe everything you hear and read, I repair the equipment on those load lines everyday and I happen to know better, not going to argue with you about it, best of luck to you in your endeavors
Wayne.

Her Searcher.. When I called the "engineering / tech" person from Blount, it was HIS assertion that it (the difference between a regular primer and a BR primer) is merely the difference in quality control. He was the one who stated that is was just another "quality step" in "looking" for the best primers. That was maybe 10 years ago? Maybe they have changed since then>>>maybe HIS assertion was wrong in the first place>>>I don't know. BUT this is what I do know: "When I "run dry" of some sort of "BR Primer" like the BR-2 / Br-4, OR the Fed 205 / 210 "GM's" I have substituted the "regular" primer and found no difference. As a matter of fact, what I did one time since I was VERY low on BOTH BR-4's and CCI 200's I simply "mixed" both of them together (completely random) and went to a match with that concoction! It was a 300 F-Open match and if memory serves me correctly, I shot a 197-42X score! Not bad for "substitution"! At any rate, I was just stating what I was told>>>and I just stated what I did..

Mr. Shoodots,
I wasn't going to reply to your post at all but..........sometimes I just can't control myself! One question,......I assume you were shooting .308 so did you scotch tape the Br-4's in the .308 cases or were you shooting a .223? .......if so did you hammer the 200's into the small primer pocket hole?........just real curious how you did that?......If I were you I think I would not even reply.....nor would I edit it! it really is a classic happy shooting to you sir, I truly do wish all the best for you
Wayne.

 

[ShootDots]

Mr. Bozo, what you DO need to do is READ what I wrote and you will have your answer...

 

[bozo699]

Mr. Shootsdots,
I did read it sir,...you stated you randomly mixed BR-4's which are small rifle primers with 200's which of course are large rifle primers ......still curious how that worked?
Wayne.

 

[ShootDots]

Mr. Bozo>>>I stand corrected>>>200's are the large and 400 are the small>>>> I meant to say 400's of which I now have a decent supply... I mixed the BR-4's with the 400's... Now that we are on the same page, it still never changed my score at 300 yards.

 

[bozo699]

Mr. Bozo>>>I stand corrected>>>200's are the large and 400 are the small>>>> I meant to say 400's of which I now have a decent supply... I mixed the BR-4's with the 400's... Now that we are on the same page, it still never changed my score at 300 yards.

Mr. ShootDots,
Now that I believe, I also believe you didn't see much difference at 300 yards, now try it at 1000 and tell me the same thing, I can tell you now what you will find out, one more thing I can tell you,...stuff enough powder in the case and what shoots great with the thicker cupped Br-4 will pierce the 400's so be careful.
Wayne.

 

[searcher]

BOZO: I wish you would have earlier stated you repair the lines on the primer machines at all of these different manufacturing plants if that is what you are saying. In that light, I guess you have had a first-hand look at the components going in, were able to compare them, are thoroughly familiar with all aspects of the procedures, etc. at all of these different plants. If you do, I wish you would have brought this up. It would have helped those who DO believe everything they hear. You'll have to pardon me, because as I earlier stated - I don't believe everything I hear. I am not attacking your knowledge and am unsure about whether it was what C.C.I has on their website that bothers you (perhaps I should not believe that?) or the other website I mentioned, along with my statement "who knows whether to believe"? Don't let the fact that you don't agree with me get you so upset. It doesn't bother me a bit. Sorry if I offended you.

 

[bozo699]

BOZO: I wish you would have earlier stated you repair the lines on the primer machines at all of these different manufacturing plants if that is what you are saying. In that light, I guess you have had a first-hand look at the components going in, were able to compare them, are thoroughly familiar with all aspects of the procedures, etc. at all of these different plants. If you do, I wish you would have brought this up. It would have helped those who DO believe everything they hear. You'll have to pardon me, because as I earlier stated - I don't believe everything I hear. I am not attacking your knowledge and am unsure about whether it was what C.C.I has on their website that bothers you (perhaps I should not believe that?) or the other website I mentioned, along with my statement "who knows whether to believe"? Don't let the fact that you don't agree with me get you so upset. It doesn't bother me a bit. Sorry if I offended you.

It takes a lot to offend me, and you did not achieve that! I do not work at every primer plant of course! I work for ATK which has many holdings including Federal and CCI ,...I do not work at the anoka plant that houses Federal I work at the Lewiston Idaho plant that houses CCI/Speer, Blount hasn't owned them in years, I will not break the process down for you, I am not a line worker I am an Electrician and I have to be able to repair them, so I have to understand all aspects of the operation so I can perform my duties, I know exactly how there built, some is public knowledge which I can share and others are not which I cannot share,..and I won't,..as I stated you have some happy shooting my friend and if primers don't matter to your rifle then you one of the special few that this occurrence happens to and I am happy for you I am a 1000 bench rest shooter and I have found primers to be key in tuning my rifle, maybe I am just not as lucky as you,....take care
Wayne.

 

[searcher]

Thanks for the encouragement Bozo. I'll take your knowledge to the bank. If anyone asks me how I heard about the primers facts I tell them from hereon - I can assure them I heard it from some Bozo on the internet. Just kidding....

 

[308sako]

Perhaps the single greatest difference I have witnessed is this test I did for a moderator on another forum.

If you notice the tapes from my Oehler 35P the SD for both was under 10, rounds fired at 300 yards, .308 Winchester. The only difference was the primer for these 2 ten shot groups.

Draw your own opinions... it was an eye opener for me.