Lapua does not recommend re-annealing?

[BoydAllen]

A couple of observations: Neck cracking depends on how much brass is worked during each firing and sizing cycle. If you have a large chamber neck, and you are using a one piece die that over sizes necks, and then opens them back up with an expander, you are working your necks a lot more than if your chamber neck is only 2-3 thousandths larger than your loaded rounds, and your sizing process only goes in one direction, sizing down to the desired diameter.

Personally, I have seen case necks seem to become less uniform in bullet seating force as cases are used, but then seem to be more uniform as the number of firings increased past a certain point. I think that this may be because there may be a maximum amount of work hardening at which point cases become more uniform.

The other issue that I have seen relates to uniformity of shoulder bump, with cases that have been fired and sized in rotation. By carefully annealing, case neck hardness is not reduced too much, but uniformity of shoulder bump has been improved quite a bit. This came up with a couple of magnum calibers, .338 Lauua, and 7mm WSM

 

[Toejoe12]

Just curious, how much brass can you buy for the price to purchase and operate an annealing machine ? How much time is spent annealing ?

For F Class competition you'll need 600 pieces of brass for a season to be on the safe side if you shoot all matches during National. Lapua 308 palma lets say a good price of $84 per 100 so roughly $500. Giraud Annealer is roughly $500. Get 2 seasons out of a set of brass and you're breaking even. 3 or more seasons in the black!

Edit.......forgot to answer the second question. I mentioned Giraud (what I have) and you can bulk load it with brass. Never timed it but say easily under 10 minutes per 100

 

[rr2030]

I am sure every case is different. My case is: I shoot at least 5-6 thousand rounds per year. The BenchSource, when I bought it was $500.20 to my door. I have had it for about 5 years now. That is "about" 30,000 rounds during that time. I believe it has paid for itself. But how do you measure the "cost" of inconsistent brass?

Ok, I am not debating if annealing is good or bad, just trying to assess its usefulness. That being said, it appears there has not been multiple independent comprehensive studies done to deny or confirm the usefulness. Is it liken to Nitrogen in your car tires, all the Nitrogen flush machine manufacturers studies state blah, blah, blah, and thats why you need it, and you don't.

 

[DngBat7]

Wel

Just curious, how much brass can you buy for the price to purchase and operate an annealing machine ? How much time is spent annealing ?

Well, lapua is about 110. For 100 pieces. So I just bought 200 for 220. My annealeezz machine cost just a little more than that (275.). So even if it just gives you 5 extra fireings over brass life time, annealer is paid off quickly especially if you shoot a lot, and especially over a lifetime of shooting. It take me about 10 minutes I guess to anneal 100 and it’s automated. I start it and walk away

 

[DngBat7]

Anybody know a metallurgist? This should be a very simple answer.

 

[DngBat7]

Ok. This from a official metallurgy website. Not a shooting forum or written by a shooter. I guess annealing really works after all.... yeah!

 

[F Class John]

Supposed to, not supposed to, good bad indifferent I suppose it’s like a lot of other reloading steps that get debated. For me I like the improved brass life and consistency but the bottom line is that for me like a lot of my reloading steps personally it give me more confidence. That confidence translates to better scores one way or another. When I’ve removed as many variables as possible then it reinforces me as the variable that’s causing the problem. I don’t ever want to get to the line and wonder if my load is what’s going to throw my score. I want it to be me.

Also keep in mind I shoot at minimum 3,000 rounds of .284 a year. Kill a couple barrels a year and have no issue spending $2,000 on my annealer set up. But that’s me. YMMV and that’s all good too.

 

[KevinThomas]

Just to clear up a few points here, since I was involved in the recommendation regarding annealing. Specifically, the commentary was that Lapua took no position whatsoever regarding annealing, since they have no control over how it’s done by the hand loader. Annealing can offer definite benefits in the reloading process, and it can also seriously damage th brass. It can also be a complete waste of time and effort, accomplishing absolutely nothing in the final product. As a result of these variable outcomes, the decision was made to offer no recommendation whatsoever regarding the process. Do it if you want, or skip it altogether, your call entirely. But if you choose to anneal, understand that the end results are yours and yours alone. But Lapua takes no position on it one way or the other.

Personally, I’ve been annealing cases for well over thirty years now, but it is not a regular part of my reloading process. I use it when reforming cases (223 to 7mm TCU, 30-06 to 338-06, etc) and have found it to be a useful step in such conversions. As for simply reloading cases without extensive reworking, I’ve never seen any advantage to it at all in regards to accuracy or case longevity. My cases generally get retired when the primer pockets open up, and rarely do I lose cases to neck splits. That, as Boyd had indicated, has far more to do with proper neck diameters in the dies, and not working the cases excessively via oversize expander balls (if you still use them). Personal call, nothing more.

 

[BoydAllen]

I am amused by references to the existence of elaborate studies. In the shooting sports we mostly work with anecdotal evidence, particularly at the leading edge of competition. People try things, and they work or they don't and they share information, that is about the extent of it. I know competition shooters who anneal, and those that do not. Both do so based on their own testing, with the components that they find work the best for their particular situations. There has been an increasing trend for some to try to do this hobby on their computers rather than at the range, and while there is a lot to be learned and shared here, there is no substitute for testing at the range. The other issue with the internet is that it can be difficult for the inexperienced to sort bad advice from good. I have seen a lot of questionable advice on the internet relating to annealing. I have annealed successfully. It can be done, but generally I do not.

 

[riflewoman]

Well, not a metallurgist, but I was an aerospace engineer mechanical and know a bit about metallurgy. Worked with metallurgists and I asked one directly. See some of my posts about annealing. There’s one in this thread...http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/how-many-reloads-before-annealing.3963272/page-4.

I think Lapua is afraid of people doing it wrong. From what I see there’s about 90% of the information on how to “anneal” is wrong. The AMP people have data, but it is geared to their machine. But it does indicate that you must get the brass hotter than most of the recommendations out there. https://www.ampannealing.com/ Read the articles in the media tab. You might not fully understand what’s going on, but their results mirror what any metallurgist Worth his pay will tell you. None of the other machine makers do this.

And not all the information you get out of the ammo makers is good either. Norma said that brass will age harden and that is metallurgically impossible.

FWIW.

 

[mikegaiz]

I have 200 Norma 300 WSM pieces of brass that have been through over 4500 rounds and still shoot winning groups. They have been annealed at least every other firing if not each firing. still shoot great. I also have some 6.5x47 Lapua that have the same record firings. Annealing works oh and no split necks.

 

[KevinThomas]

This is it, right here. No control over how it’s done, so no responsibility for the final outcome, whatever it may be.

And if you haven’t seen people blame perfectly good products or components that they themselves screwed up, you’ve plainly never spent any time in the firearms industry. Sorry, but that’s the flat truth right there.

 

[DngBat7]

Well, not a metallurgist, but I was an aerospace engineer mechanical and know a bit about metallurgy. Worked with metallurgists and I asked one directly. See some of my posts about annealing. There’s one in this thread...http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/how-many-reloads-before-annealing.3963272/page-4.

I think Lapua is afraid of people doing it wrong. From what I see there’s about 90% of the information on how to “anneal” is wrong. The AMP people have data, but it is geared to their machine. But it does indicate that you must get the brass hotter than most of the recommendations out there. https://www.ampannealing.com/ Read the articles in the media tab. You might not fully understand what’s going on, but their results mirror what any metallurgist Worth his pay will tell you. None of the other machine makers do this.

And not all the information you get out of the ammo makers is good either. Norma said that brass will age harden and that is metallurgically impossible.

FWIW.

Well, not a metallurgist, but I was an aerospace engineer mechanical and know a bit about metallurgy. Worked with metallurgists and I asked one directly. See some of my posts about annealing. There’s one in this thread...http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/how-many-reloads-before-annealing.3963272/page-4.

I think Lapua is afraid of people doing it wrong. From what I see there’s about 90% of the information on how to “anneal” is wrong. The AMP people have data, but it is geared to their machine. But it does indicate that you must get the brass hotter than most of the recommendations out there. https://www.ampannealing.com/ Read the articles in the media tab. You might not fully understand what’s going on, but their results mirror what any metallurgist Worth his pay will tell you. None of the other machine makers do this.

And not all the information you get out of the ammo makers is good either. Norma said that brass will age harden and that is metallurgically impossible.

FWIW.

So the 750 tempilaq is wrong, Use 1000 degree?

 

[riflewoman]

So the 750 tempilaq is wrong, Use 1000 degree?

I never said that...... but you do need to get the brass up to that temperature range locally . Now, how do you control the affect considering that:

Brass is a very good conductor of heat, the amount of residual cold work lowers the temperature at which annealing occurs, the case body has upwards of 60% residual cold work, and you have no metallurgical analysis capability?

We used to stand cases in water to control the heat from reaching the body. After they got to a “dull red heat” in a darkened room we’d tip them over. To stop the annealing process cold. Maybe the last step wasn’t needed?

Now we have fancy machines and grandiose claims, but none repeat the old process. At least from what I know.

 

[JRS]

So the 750 tempilaq is wrong, Use 1000 degree?

Tempilaq shows surface temperature.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

I keep very accurate records when reloading. When I started reloading for my Ruger 6.5 Creedmoor, I bought a box of Hornady factory bullets. I have now reloaded this brass 41 times. have found two with split necks. One at 14 reloadings and one at 36 reloadings. Never once annealed. That's 2000 shots. I now have to replace the barrel because it is not grouping anymore.

New barrel will be here latter today and I have a brand new box of Hornady factory ammo which I will use to break the barrel in and will discard the old brass to start anew.

 

[SmokinJoe]

And remember that annealing brass is both a temperature and time process - not just temperature.

 

[KMart]

Ok, I am not debating if annealing is good or bad, just trying to assess its usefulness. That being said, it appears there has not been multiple independent comprehensive studies done to deny or confirm the usefulness. Is it liken to Nitrogen in your car tires, all the Nitrogen flush machine manufacturers studies state blah, blah, blah, and thats why you need it, and you don't.

The air put into tires using a standard air compressor is about 78% Nitrogen and 21% oxygen. That same concentration goes into your lungs.
We had a phosgene generator in one of the units I worked in and when we changed out the carbon bed, It would take about 3 days using heated nitrogen to purge all of the oxygen out.
The tire guys have a racket going.

 

[DngBat7]

I think my initial question my be the start of World War III.. Did not realize this was such a hot button topic

 

[R.Morehouse]

Just curious, how much brass can you buy for the price to purchase and operate an annealing machine ? How much time is spent annealing ?

Never thought about brass cost and time involved. I enjoy the crap out of every aspect it takes to make accurate ammo from turning necks with the Benchrite to sitting in front of the TV with the AMP.. The cost of making it enjoyable for me is something i have to accept or i can find another hobby. Shooting SR & LR BR will never be a $ making option for me. But the enjoyment of the company i keep and the time & money involved and every now and then shooting good is priceless to me.

Regards
Rick