Krieger barrel put in AR yesterday. Sticky situation. Advice? Pic attached

[hogan]

Wilson Case Gauge or RCBS Precision Mic will tell your story; at least give you oal changes before and after firing. Pretty reliable way to setup your sizer as well, go to .0035 under your 2 or 3x fired case dimension. Does brass fully form to the chamber from an unfired case? Maybe. Can be pretty sure by using fired cases to gauge. Look at several. Might see some variances. You're risking trouble if you don't sample a good number of results before you rely on a number...

Might think about polishing your chamber Flitz or Bore-Paste on a chamber mop or tight patch over a chamber brush.

Nothing "wrong" with pre-sizing bulk brass. I use an FL S die and want the neck bushing effect from the start. Cases out of a bulk bag will have dented necks. Use a 30deg VLD chamfer tool with the Wilson trimmer and get more control. Think of pre-sizing as uniforming your dimensions. Probably the time to uniform the flash hole with a broach.

 

[lloydx2]

Numbers don't lie They dont care if your shooting 1 of 10 different chamber configurations.
Go get the gauges and be done with it. You will end up doing it eventually anyway.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Thanks for the insightful post. I've only shot the Lapua brass once in other barrel so maybe it's not opened up that much at the base. But even still, I have been full length sizing it so wouldn't that take it back down. Not sure how the base can continually grow if I'm full length sizing it. Will read the post again though in case I'm missing something.

The fact you only get about 1/4 of your cases to stick is due to the fact they were only fired in the portly Wylde chamber once. Most of my cases stuck and after 10 or so, I sampled others and had the same issue. Full length sizing does not close the base unless you use a small base (notice that word again) die.

And I read to always resize new brass. What is the rationale for not resizing new brass and what is it about full length sizing makes you think I'm screwing my brass up. I'm just full length sizing it. What am I missing here? Thanks.

Dan

There is nothing to you can do to make virgin brass better with sizing except to round out the mouth. And for that you only need to run a mandrel through the mouth or just push the sizer button of the sizing die through the mouth and no more.

The reason you're screwing up your brass is that you have no idea about the length of your chamber, the virgin brass or the fired brass. You think your sticking problem is because of the shoulder. How could that even be possible? You chambered the case and you fired it, now it won't come out. How could that be due to a high shoulder? By pushing the shoulder down on your virgin brass, you are creating a headspace problem where none existed. Your cases may rupture in a few loadings and that's going to be worse than sticking a case in a tight chamber.

Stop messing with the sizing die and get some gauges and comparators and start taking measurements. Right now, you're driving blind and heading for some unpleasantness.

 

[jlow]

Agreed! It's a bit hard to understand how one can do precision reloading without measuring and actually knowing the exact headspace for your specific rifle. It's a key piece of data for safety and precision.

Too much head space means your brass can stretch when fired to result in case head separation, Fail to fire if the primer is too far away.

Too little head space means you might experience "open bolt detonation", excessive wear on your lugs, and bolts that will not close if even a little sand/dirt gets into your chamber.

 

[Danattherock]

The sticky rounds were not fired leading up to my posting here. They were dry run through the gun. Anyway, all 40 rounds were perfect today actually firing them. Loaded 30 more today, three 8 shot groups around my best today, which was 24 grains of Varget.

Two of the four groups were sub MOA. So I am happy so far. Will read up on this head space info and better determine how it effects what I'm trying to achieve. I've got a little hornady gauge with inserts for various calibers. Goes on my calipers, Hornady comparator with anvil base. That's what I have. Haven't used it yet. Not sure how useful it will be.

What is it I need to measure I don't already know? All the rounds fed flawlessly through the gun today. Die is touching shell holder. Brass is 1.750 and COAL is 2.275, +/- 0.002".

I've only loaded 200 rounds in my life on a single stage so It would be great if someone with a bit of patience would tell me what I'm trying to achieve here. The rounds fired, ejected, and were sub MOA. Maybe I'm a donkey looking at a carrot. But I am not sure what's wrong yet.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

The reason you're screwing up your brass is that you have no idea about the length of your chamber, the virgin brass or the fired brass. You think your sticking problem is because of the shoulder. How could that even be possible? You chambered the case and you fired it, now it won't come out. How could that be due to a high shoulder? By pushing the shoulder down on your virgin brass, you are creating a headspace problem where none existed. Your cases may rupture in a few loadings and that's going to be worse than sticking a case.

Back to first post, ammo had never been fired in the gun. I was very specific about saying that.

In that same post I mention the exact case length and the COAL.

How am I pushing shoulder back on virgin brass by full length sizing it?

 

[Patch700]

By the sounds of it you have the proper tools to do all your measuring fore and aft , for more in depth easy to understand instructions I would suggest looking into the writings of German Salazar (spelling?) Aka the riflemans blog. He goes through all the steps and explains why you may be seeing certain measurements and what they mean for your particular situation.

 

[maxscm]

Small Base RCBS FL Dies.
Problem Solved.

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks guys. Here is what I own, aside from calipers. Used to measure off ogive. Is any of this stuff used to measure head space or is it a whole other kit I need? And what exactly is it I am measuring?

 

[lloydx2]

It can be very intimidating on this web sight. There are some real hard core people here. I am sorry if I through a bunch of crap at you. The fact that you said you didn't know is quite admirable. But you need to have an understanding of how the round is being supported in the chamber. Then you will get an idea of what you are measuring. Overall length of case is important. But the length from the base of the case to a given diameter on the case shoulder (datum line) is just as important. And the diameter of the base of the case ahead of the case rim. The tools I am referring to will give you this measurement. Patch 700 has given an excellent source to learn this concept. Articles by German Salazar.

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks man. Was just reading one of Germans articles about head space.

 

[Patch700]

Thanks guys. Here is what I own, aside from calipers. Used to measure off ogive. Is any of this stuff used to measure head space or is it a whole other kit I need? And what exactly is it I am measuring?

Yes you will require the comparator body along with the inserts used for measuring to the datum line... they are essentially the same as the inserts you would use for measuring to ogive on your bullets except that instead of being say .22 or .30 they will be larger so as to come in contact with the shoulder at a specific area.

Here is a picture that shows a few different ways to go about this. The first insert is a Hornady .400" and this would be used where a cartridge would need a .400" insert as per Hornady's recommendation in the sheet that comes with their inserts.

The next insert is one that I have made for a particular cartridge that is actually a spare bullet insert that I reamed out using the chamber reamer.

The third one you see (on the right) is one that is supplied buy the good folks at Whidden gun works , when you purchase their sizing dies they include this so you have a way of measuring to the shoulder datum line.

 

[Patch700]

With your insert of choice installed in the comparator body you then zero your calipers and begin measuring from base to datum, be sure to give the case a slight wiggle and rotate so as to be certain your case is indeed square within the caliper.

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks Patch. Just ordered the head space gauge (case gauge) inserts on Amazon and will have them Wed. So if I understand it, I want to avoid excessive head space as it over works the brass. So in AR I want to set die so it will have my sized brass shoulder 0.003-0.004" back from the chamber. Where my head space now is likely much larger than that.

So I measure sized brass and compare it against fired brass. Look at the disparity in the two numbers to see how far back I am bumping shoulder compared to how much it grows when fired. Then set the die up to bump it back 0.003-0.004" from that fire formed measurement. Is that pretty much all that proper head spacing requires?

Should I repeat this process after 3-4 firings as brass is fully fire formed or is it a set it and forget it type of a measurement? Should I use unfired new brass, unfired new but sized, or previously fired, then resized brass for the 'unfired' brass part of the equation? Thanks for any further thoughts.


Dan

 

[Patch700]

You should be measuring your fired brass at the base , then .200" below shoulder body junction and finally base to datum without having done any sizing ... Comparing these numbers with an unfired piece will tell you how much expansion you are experiencing with that particular load in that particular chamber.. At that point you begin the task of properly setting up your sizing die so as to have your brass feed nicely , all the while taking measurements to see what is changing until you get the results you are looking for.

The reason you need to keep measuring during the process is so you can see at exactly what point in the operation you have made it so the brass feeds as though it should and you will know why because you have 3 key measurements to refer to.

In short you need to KNOW what it is you changed with your brass in 3 areas to get it to where you want it... Without that you may find yourself over bumping the shoulder to get it to feed when in reality the reason for sticky feeding was NOT a base to datum number being too long but actually a base measurement and the only way to get the base sized was to keep screwing the die down so as to reach that point.. This would be one of those c scenarios where a small base die is required as it will get to the base area of the brass at a sooner rate than say some standard FL dies.


Hopefully this makes sense .

Good luck.

 

[bsekf]

As suggested you do need some instruments to actually measure head space, I use Hornady that clamp to my calipers.

I have had "sticky" and it turned out to be oversized bases, caused by some hot loads, they didn't "spring back".. Try running those "sticky" cases through a 38/357 carbide sizer. That should resize the base of your 223.

Bill

 

[jhord]

Patch has your back, you are on the way to understanding what's going on. I had the same battle when my AR's had different barrels. One was a Wylde and the other a .223 Match. Brass fired in the Wylde was a sticky situation in the Match, even when F/L sized with a small base die. You will need to segregate brass if you have other AR's or .223 bolts guns with bigger chambers. Sometimes I wonder if a Match chamber in an AR is really worth it.

 

[waldo1979]

You might try using some bore tech eliminator to remove the moly (or whatever else exists). It's possible there a carbon ring build up right at the throat. It may be visible when looking down the bore.

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks for the input guys. Sounds like head space is a tad more complicated than the Youtube yahoo made it out to be. Hah. After reading Patches post three times, it occurred to me just how little I know about head space. Humbling.

As for brass, I'm only single stage loading for this particular 223. I'm using 300 rounds of Lapua brass. 200 of which isn't in circulation yet, just weight sorted and reboxed. Using the 100 that were previously fired a time or two in my 223 Wylde barrel previously in this same gun. Those were weight sorted, flash holes deburred, trimmed on Forster, champher/deburr, etc.

My instinct is that since my first 30 rounds contained some sticky brass, and I took die down 1/8 turn (0.009" I'm told) that I am over working my brass. Base this on the fact that all 30 sticky rounds fired fine and ejected, so maybe they were not as tight a fit to begin with. Assuming it's the base from previously firing in 223 Wylde, if I just started using the new brass would it help?

To remind you, I loaded 30 with die 1/8 turn off the shell holder, the sticky rounds. Well, about 25% were, the rest were smoothly ejected. Then I took 10 rounds and loaded them with die touching shell holder, and all were ejected smoot as hot butter.

Thinking (guessing) my shoulder on loaded rounds is 0.010-0.020" Bach further than it needs to be. But then there is the question of what caused the sticky rounds, shoulder not bumped back enough or the base not being sized down enough. Sounds like the hornady tool measuring unfired and fired brass will shed some light on this. Or so I hope.

So if I get head space gauge from Hornady and figure out that, I still may be in trouble if I adjust die so my brass is sized 0.003-0.004" from chamber on shoulder, but that setting won't size base enough. That is when buying small base dies enter equation I guess. Funny thing is I bought these rather expensive Redding Deluxe dies cause I heard how great they were. Now they may be paper weights.

Does the previously mentioned Redding competition shell holder set come into play here? Or do I need to just focus on the Hornady gauge and see what my issue is? I'm kind of curious if it's the base or shoulder, but not 100% certain how to isolate the culprit. All ammo fired and ejected. Makes me wonder if I've overstated my issue due to my own ignorance. At any rate, I'm in the process of learning a new skill. I thank you all for that. Still trying to wrap my head around what I'm actually trying to achieve.




Dan

 

[pdhntr]

So if I get head space gauge from Hornady and figure out that, I still may be in trouble if I adjust die so my brass is sized 0.003-0.004" from chamber on shoulder, but that setting won't size base enough. That is when buying small base dies enter equation I guess. Funny thing is I bought these rather expensive Redding Deluxe dies cause I heard how great they were. Now they may be paper weights.

I have not had any problem with the one Krieger chamber I have. Doesn't mean the chambers can't be different, but I am guessing you won't have a problem using the dies you have. If it doesn't work, you will know pretty quickly.

Does the previously mentioned Redding competition shell holder set come into play here? Or do I need to just focus on the Hornady gauge and see what my issue is? I'm kind of curious if it's the base or shoulder, but not 100% certain how to isolate the culprit. All ammo fired and ejected. Makes me wonder if I've overstated my issue due to my own ignorance. At any rate, I'm in the process of learning a new skill. I thank you all for that. Still trying to wrap my head around what I'm actually trying to achieve.

Yes, this is where I use them. By picking the right one to get the right shoulder set back, you are able to bottom on a shell holder which will take the "play" out of your press. You will find the amount can vary somewhat without coming up hard against a shell holder.

Jim