Krieger barrel put in AR yesterday. Sticky situation. Advice? Pic attached

[Danattherock]

My buddy and I got wind of some USMC 20" 223 barrels with 500 rounds through them available. We went up and got them put in our Barnes precision AR-15's yesterday. Our factory 16" 223 Wylde Montana barrel were shooting 0.8" eight shot groups, but we jumped at the chance for a longer and beefier Krieger. Never had a high end barrel before. These were from some Marine shooting team, that decided on another barrel. That's all I know. Well, that, and it was the dirtiest barrel I've ever seen. If truly 500 rounds through them as told, they were never cleaned. Took a lot of elbow grease to get it clean.

Loaded 30 rounds last night. 10 to sight in and four 5 shot groups of Varget in half grain increments between 22.5-24 gr. 77 SMK moly bullets. About 25% of the rounds are sticky to eject, some requiring a good deal of force pulling charging handle back in order to eject. I'm using once fired Lapua brass at 1.750-1.753". Untrimmed but uniform, weight sorted within a grain. Full length sized on Redding Deluxe dies with die 1/8 (at most) off the shell holder. Not sure why only 75% ran through smoothly. By my standards, these are very uniform cartridges. COAL 2.270-2.275".

Anyway, I just finished loading 10 more. A back up for shooting tomm in case the first 30 don't feed. At least I will be able to sight scope in to new barrel if nothing else. A Burris Black Diamond 8-32 I just yanked off my 50 BMG. These 10 were exactly the same as the first 30 from last night. Only difference is I bottomed the die out on the shell holder. Carefully watching and guesstimating, 1/8 turn is most I had before bottoming out on shell holder. At any rate, these 10 rounds fed through the gun fine. Loaded 10 round mag twice and 20 times had same result. Smooth as hot butter.

I took the 10 rounds that were sticking last night and ran through gun afterwards. Trying to isolate the cleaning of the gun versus the slight shoulder set back achieved by bottoming out die on shell holder with the 1/8 turn. The previously sticky rounds are still, well, sticky.

What's confusing to me is that slight 1/8 turn making that much difference. Bumping shoulder back 0.002-0.004", is that the difference in sticky rounds and hot butter? I just started reloading last year and this is my first non factory barrel. More naive than I realize perhaps. Just curious if I'm overlooking something here. Is this normal for higher quality barrels? Is it common to have to bottom out die on shell holder? What if problem continued after that 1/8 turn, when metal hit metal? Then what? Seems a bit fickle, even for an apparently tight chambered barrel. Or is this normal?

Thanks for any input you may offer.


Dan

 

[people]

Re: Krieger barrel put in AR yesterday. Sticky situation. Advice?

It depends on how your chamber was cut. Some are very generous and others are at the minimum.

I would suggest measuring your fired brass they will tell you how much room you have.

Now if the 1/8 had not worked with your measurements you could determine if you needed to get a taller or shorter shell holder. In your case sanding a couple thousands off the top sounds like it would have helped.

 

[nmjwolf]

You should try to bump the shoulders on an ar about 3 to 5 thousandths. You can buy or make a guage to measure the shoulder bump. Robert has a good write up here:http://www.6mmar.com/Info_Page.html

 

[Patch700]

For a reference if you are dealing with normal 7/8" x 14 dies then 1/8th of a turn is a large amount of adjustment when your looking to chase a few thousands .

 

[hogpatrol]

For a reference if you are dealing with normal 7/8" x 14 dies then 1/8th of a turn is a large amount of adjustment when your looking to chase a few thousands .

1/8 turn is approximately .009.

 

[Patch700]

There you go...... 009" is more than a small adjustment with respect to creeping up on a shoulder bump final setting..

 

[jrm850]

I'm betting that it's the base of the once fired brass, and screwing the die to touch does just enough to make it fit.

 

[akajun]

Try 24.1 to 24.2 grains of varget, and if your trying to load from a magazine, load no longer than 2.260. Any longer and you can start having feeding issues . in terms of re sizing, I always push the shoilder back 4-5 thousands in my ar's. I still get 10-12 loading from lc brass and usually cull them due to worn primer pockets or a split neck, never had a case head separation .
Also if those barrels were from the USMC, they may not be Wylde chambers, they may be tighter chambered barrels used for God knows what.

 

[Rtheurer]

I believe your finding out the difrence between a match rifle chamber and a huge max Sammi spec chamber. Its as simple as that. Had you started with new brass you would have never thought it odd other than having to reset your FL die.
It sounds as if your upset to have a Match grade barrel and chamber?

Also I believe the Marine Service rifle team shoot Moly coated bullets. So if that is the case then ya.. the moly might be a little harder to get out of the barrel.

Looks like your going to learn some new tricks and the proper way to set up a Sizing die.

Russ T

 

[1lnbrdg]

I'm betting that it's the base of the once fired brass, and screwing the die to touch does just enough to make it fit.

2 different issues to look at, but both cause problems. Screwing the die in farther could have fixed 1 problem but can cause others.

Legnth, is the headspace too long?
Width, is the base of the cartridge too fat?

 

[lloydx2]

Need to buy dial caliper and shoulder bump gauge set, Does not have to be anything
fancy. There are sets out there for $40. This is the first thing you need to do. Anything
else is just guessing. Measure fired rounds (with shoulder gauge set) out of that chamber
Adjust die until they average 003-004 less than fired cases.

 

[highmaster82]

cases are tapered,when you lowered the FL die you reduced the diameter of the case from the base to the sholder .letting it fit the chamber. FL dies are not for sholder bumping,
moveing the case into the die also pushed the sholder back but the problem was case diameter.

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks for the insights guys. Really appreciate it. Shooting this afternoon and eager to see if original 30 (sticky) rounds will fire. The ten rounds I made last night were with unfired Lapua, which then had die adjusted down that final 1/8 turn to bottom out. It worked, but now I'm wondering if the once fired brass that was fire formed to my old barrel could be an issue.

Meaning, if adjusting die to bottom out last night, wonder if that once fired brass will go through gun as smoothly as the new brass did. I was giving thought to the shoulder not being back enough, and it's relationship to the die bottoming out making that final bit of difference. After thinking about some of the advice above me here, I am now wondering if the base was not sized down enough. Reloading sure is fun. So many variable. Double edged sword of sorts.

I appreciate you more experienced guys taking the time to help speed up my learning curve. I have loaded single stage on my chucker for 223 target ammo with good results. Several sub MOA loads. Have my Dillon 550 running four calibers like a Swiss clock. But at times like this, reloading humbles me.



Dan

 

[Danattherock]

For a reference if you are dealing with normal 7/8" x 14 dies then 1/8th of a turn is a large amount of adjustment when your looking to chase a few thousands .

1/8 turn is approximately .009.

Thanks Patch and Hogpatrol. I'm very surprised to hear that an 1/8 turn equates to 0.009". If that's the case, it provides far more adjustment than I could have imagined. To date, I got by fine just bottoming out die and backing off 1/4 turn. That same brass by the way, jammed in this new barrel first time. I had to use a rubber mallet on charging handle to eject it. After that, I bottomed die out on shell holder and backed off 1/8-1/10 turn. That's where I started with this Kreiger barrel reloading two days ago. Got much to learn. Clearly.


Dan

 

[Patch700]

This is where proper measurements of fired brass compared to sized brass can tell you a story
.. A small base die might be a good investment but on the other hand it may not be needed.

The easiest way to ascertain the above is by measuring both base to datum and base diameter of fired brass... Then size brass till it cycles as it should , when you reach that point go ahead and measure those 2 points again... If you find that in the process you've bumped the shoulder back a sufficient amount ( .004") and you still have a snug fit then that is your answer as to whether you need a small base die to bring the base back into check.

Good luck.

 

[Danattherock]

I believe your finding out the difrence between a match rifle chamber and a huge max Sammi spec chamber. Its as simple as that. Had you started with new brass you would have never thought it odd other than having to reset your FL die.
It sounds as if your upset to have a Match grade barrel and chamber?

Also I believe the Marine Service rifle team shoot Moly coated bullets. So if that is the case then ya.. the moly might be a little harder to get out of the barrel.

Looks like your going to learn some new tricks and the proper way to set up a Sizing die.

Russ T

I suspect your right Russ

 

[amlevin]

Thanks Patch and Hogpatrol. I'm very surprised to hear that an 1/8 turn equates to 0.009". If that's the case, it provides far more adjustment than I could have imagined. To date, I got by fine just bottoming out die and backing off 1/4 turn. That same brass by the way, jammed in this new barrel first time. I had to use a rubber mallet on charging handle to eject it. After that, I bottomed die out on shell holder and backed off 1/8-1/10 turn. That's where I started with this Kreiger barrel reloading two days ago. Got much to learn. Clearly.


Dan

You can save a lot of brain cells by investing in a set of Redding Competition shell holders.

Put in the +.010" shell holder, screw the die in until the press cam's over and/or there is no gap between die and shell holder. Size a case, check for chambering and bolt closure. If a problem swap for the +.008" shell holder and repeat. Keep going until you have the shell holder that will size the case for the best chambering and bolt closure.


If your regular die doesn't take care the chambering/sticky extraction issue, just invest in a small base die. If you don't have a ton of once fired brass it may be expedient to just sort the cases that will chamber properly from the "sticky" ones and then buy a box of new, unfired.

I ran into the same issue when I rebarreled a .223 Bolt action with a new Benchmark Barrel. It was chambered with a 5.56mm NATO Match reamer that had far less taper in the body area than the regular reamers. First case I chambered that was once fired in my old chamber then F/L sized got stuck. Was able, in my case, to rectify the problem with a Redding Body Die.

 

[Danattherock]

That's very interesting man. I appreciate you chiming in. These Krieger barrels had USMC, 1:7, and Krieger on them. Nothing about the caliber. It could be 5.56 as in your case, but I thought they were dimensionally the same, just a SAAMI pressure rating difference separating the 5.56 from 223.

As for brass, I'm using 300 pieces of 1 grain weight sorted Lapua match brass. 100 pieces are once fired from previous 223 Wylde barrel on this same Barnes Precision AR-15. 200 pieces, well, 190 pieces after loading 10 last night (the successful stuff), are unfired. My two year old son helped me weight sort them last night on the RCBS 1500. Wouldn't advise that by the way. Ha ha. He had fun 'helping' me moving weighed cases from one bowl to another at the kitchen table. Back on point, should I expect continued issues with the once fired brass from previous barrel?

Regarding dies, I'm using Redding Deluxe 3 die set and recently bought carbide sizer button. It's bottomed out on the Redding shell holder. If the ten successful rounds last night are a glimpse of what's to come, these dis may be fine. I'm going to find out upon loading the 40 rounds I shoot today I guess. Hoping the once fired from previous barrel will run good in Krieger now that I have that 1/8 turn down, bottoming out die to shell holder.



Dan

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

STOP what you are doing now.

Read amlevin's answer again. Now, read this:

I had a Wylde-chambered AR-15 NM rifle for which I handloaded a great deal of ammo. Never had a problem and I was using regular dies.

Then one day I sent my upper to Krieger with instructions to mount their heavy Varmatch 26 inch barrels and chamber it in their 5.56 Match chamber because I wanted to use the 80gr bullets. When the upper was returned, it looked great and the job was first class. I took it shooting and discovered to my dismay that my handloads would chamber fine but would not eject reliably. I had to use a cleaning rod to push out the cases, and sometimes they were very difficult to extract. I had brought some factory ammo with me and that presented no extraction problems.

When I returned home from that "session," the first thing I did was pull out my case guage that I had put away years prior after adjusting my dies for the prior chamber. The problem became very apparent when I tried to put a handloaded cartridge in the guage; it would not fit, the last quarter inch or so would stick out of the guage. I could push it in but it required quite a bit of force to push it out again.

On the other hand factory ammo had not problem slipping in and out of the case.

What I came to realize is that the Wylde-chamber is a pig of a chamber, it's very loose at the rear and seems to get progressively tighter as it approaches the leade. My cases had grown a very fat rear end over repeated firing and when I tried to use these cases in the very tight Krieger Match chamber, the buffer spring had sufficient strength to push the cartridge in, but it was not coming out with the feeble AR-15 extractor.

I bought a small base body die in hopes of rescuing my cherished match brass, (Winchester and Lapua,) but to no avail. After several firings that brass was not going back. So I just cut my loses and ordered new virgin brass and a Redding small base F/L type S bushing dies, which I adjusted to fit my chamber and never looked back. I use the old match stuff in my other NM AR-15 and other 5.56 NATO chambered ARs and keep it away from my Krieger-chambered AR-15.

Also, please do not resize virgin brass, especially since you do not seem to understand what's going on and you're just screwing it up. Virgin brass is as small as it will ever be; there is nothing you can do to improve it for your chamber. Use a comparator to measure the distance to the datum point on the shoulder for about a half doze and then record this measurement. Then just round out the mouth, seat a primer, load and go. After the first firing, use the comparator to get the same measurement as before. You will find that the average will have grown a few thousands, maybe .003 or .004. Then carefully use your new small base full length sizing die and adjust it carefully so that the shoulder goes back to about .001 to .002 above the initial measurement you took of the virgin brass. It will not require much push back. Be very careful in adjusting that and leave the case in the die for about 4-5 seconds to get a good resize.

After I adjusted my S/B F/L die that way, I loaded several thousands of rounds over the years and never had an issue with extraction or case separation. I still check with the guage every once in a while and I've noticed that even after multiple firings the cases go in and out without a hitch.

 

[Danattherock]

Thanks for the insightful post. I've only shot the Lapua brass once in other barrel so maybe it's not opened up that much at the base. But even still, I have been full length sizing it so wouldn't that take it back down. Not sure how the base can continually grow if I'm full length sizing it. Will read the post again though in case I'm missing something.

And I read to always resize new brass. What is the rationale for not resizing new brass and what is it about full length sizing makes you think I'm screwing my brass up. I'm just full length sizing it. What am I missing here? Thanks.



Dan