Help. Setting up Redding body die. Major FUBAR...

[Danattherock]

Dan,
For me, whenever I set up my FL Die, Step 2 is only a basic setup for starters and whatever measurement I'm after, the shoulder measurement of my fired casings dictates how much of a turn I back off. I mean if I want a bump of only .002 which I normally want, then a full turn of the lock ring may be too much of a turn. Gotta measure the casing shoulder of a fired casing to determine where you tighten your lock ring. The are no absolutes as far as that goes. Just my thoughts.

Alex

Sounds good man. I set headspace at 0.004" but didn't get any brass that far along with this die. Never got a case I put in out. My concern is where to initially begin sizing. Backing out 1/4-1/2 turn was my previous starting point. This time was backed out a full turn. Which stuck case.



Dan

 

[Danattherock]

If you have ultra-sonically cleaned you are more likely to stick cases. Super clean brass sticks to dry (and lightly lubed) steel.

Since I didn't have any bore solvent, I used a quick spray of carb cleaner, then ran a bronze 9 mm bore brush through, then a drop or two of Teflon oil on a 9 mm bore mop. Any chance the carb cleaner/oil set up a condition that contributed to my problem.


Dan

 

[bigstick6017555]

super cleaned brass and dies need to be lubed back up with sizing lube of choice. plain oils after a thorough de-greasing will not do the job. have removed a lot of stuck cases for fellow shooters and it seems that most of the time their cleaning method and oiling was causing the problem. unless it is a custom made die I always lightly polish the die's internals also. just stay away from neck and shoulder area.

 

[asauer]

It shouldn't have. Did you do as others asked and cleaned that oil back out and apply case lube in the die though?
And i saw on page one where you were asked to run a fired case (which had not been run through the Lee collet die first) and try that through your body die. Have you done this just to rule out the possibility of the collet die causing problems?

Not saying I necessarily am led to believe that is your problem, but you had a "good" setup, then proceeded to change two variables (collet die and body die). You should eliminate the one variable (collet die) before troubleshooting the second variable (body die). At least that would be my first plan before sending the die back to redding. Possibly use a "throwaway" case first instead of your nice Lapua... If you have any junkers to sacrifice. Then if that works fine, run the Lapua through.

Also, as asked before... What are the case measurements of a fired and unsized case just above the base and also just below the shoulder? I doubt it is the problem either, as you've been using a full length sizer apparently without issue, but it will eliminate the possibility of an oversized chamber causing you grief.

Final sidenote, but how much neck tension do you have with that collet die? If you're feeding from the mag, I'd be cautious due to bullet set back.

 

[Danattherock]

The neck tension is my next task and I will take my mandrel down a bit or order a smaller one from Lee.


Just took amlevins advice, same as redding rep. Cleaned things up and started over. Ran a cotton swab with imperial inside the die with a focus on the base/web. Die off shell holder one full turn, no problem. Die half turn off, no problem.

Ended up bottoming out die on shell holder to get 0.003" shoulder bump. A workable number as all auto loader suggestions I've seen were 3-5 thou. All 28 cases went through fine.

Used imperial on first 5-6 then RCBS lube/pad (my norm) on the remaining cases. In tumbler now, eager to put on conc gauge and see the fruits of my labor, or not. Hah.

Thanks for your time and candor. Guess some new dies need lubed. Never heard that, but won't forget it.



Dan

 

[Danattherock]

Thank you Boyd Allen ;D


My average runout of 3.5-4 after sizing is now nil. My 21 st Century gauge just twitched, as if she was a hot blonde sitting in the passenger seat thinking of something to bitch about, but couldn't.

My 28 cases showed 0.0005-0.001 runout. Think that's right. Half thou. I did inexplicably have two cases that registered 1.5 and 2 thou. Perhaps non concentric case mouth to shoulder relationships. Not sure.

At any rate, this neck collet and body die approach has eliminated my sizing induced runout. Expanders be damned. Now I just need to get my Forster Ultra fixed and back in the game. Hopefully it will address seating induced runout. But for now, after resizing, I have essentially no runout. Half thou.

Thanks for the help here. I appreciate it, as always. Just heard of headspace and runout for first time a few weeks back. I'm slow, but not as much so as I was.

Dan

 

[asauer]

Glad that fixed it for you.
I had to polish quite a bit off my mandrel to make it work for my swift. Keep in mind that this will only remain good if you use brass with the same neck thickness...

 

[artbosco]

The Biggest FUBAR was buying two dies instead of One. A F/L die [with or without bushing capability] was all you needed. :'(

 

[Danattherock]

I thought about taking expander out of old die but didn't want the FL sizer touching my necks now that Lee collet die being used.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

Keep in mind that this will only remain good if you use brass with the same neck thickness...

Necks are not turned now and I've only got a half thou of runout. Pending issue is that while the Lee collet die has made OD concentric its merely pushed the thickness variation to the ID. Seating and measuring loaded round runout will be diagnostic. Neck tension is my next subject to tackle as this ammo is for autoloader. Then will start trimming necks with a Gracey if loaded runout test dictate. I'm just excited to have eliminated runout I had been creating during the sizing.


Dan

 

[michaelnel]

Worth reading: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=946667.0

 

[waldo1979]

Did you clean the die? Mine came saturated in some sort of cosmoline.

 

[amlevin]

Did you clean the die? Mine came saturated in some sort of cosmoline.

It's pretty much a given that all new dies are to be cleaned first. Clean them with carb cleaner, Brake Kleen, paint thinner, nail polish remover or whatever kind of grease removing solvent you have around. Get it all out so you are starting fresh without any crud that may have found it's way into the die from finish to your opening the box.

Take a q-tip and lube it up with imperial or unique, or spray your favorite spray lube in the die. Run a q-tip around if you want to make sure that the die has lube evenly distributed on all the inner contact surfaces.

When you lube and size your cases the residual lube from the case will keep the die from grabbing the next case but you need to replace this film if you clean the die again.

FWIW, the difference between a stuck case and a easily removed case is only a couple of lube molecules in film thickness. That's why clean new dies are prone to causing stuck cases.

 

[asauer]

To be honest, I've NEVER swabbed lube into my dies after cleaning preservative grease out of new dies.
I use Kroil on a patch and swab the die out, then a dry patch and then lube a case with imperial and never look back.
The only time I have stuck a case was "on purpose"- seeing how many times I could get away without lubing 223 cases in a small base full length die. My coax press ripped the rim off after the 6th or 7th case.

 

[Danattherock]

Did the same test and got away with it zero times. ;D


I have never lubed inside of die before. But it did the trick on this one. Would be a handy little piece of advice to put on print at some point. I have never seen any instructions suggest lubing inside of die.

Really appreciate the positive replies on this thread. I was in boiler room mode after having a dud Forster Ultra seater last week. Never had any equipment issues, but these last two purchases were less than ideal out the box. I'm sure the end result will be worthwhile though.

Thanks to all those that helped.


Dan

 

[Brians356]

Did you clean the die? Mine came saturated in some sort of cosmoline.

It's pretty much a given that all new dies are to be cleaned first. Clean them with carb cleaner, Brake Kleen, paint thinner, nail polish remover or whatever kind of grease removing solvent you have around.

Cheap, safe, and very effective: Ordinary lighter fluid (mostly just naptha). It's what Jewell specifies to clean their triggers.

I use a little out of the Kingsford can I light my BBQ with. You can safely use it to clean stains from your carpet, so sloshing a little around is no big deal. Guitar repairmen (like myself) use it to clean bare wood and aged lacquer on valuable vintage guitars.

Carb and brake cleaners are very toxic and nasty to breath, and if you spill any indoors - ouch! Nail polish remover is overkill, mostly acetone, stinks to high heaven - and don't spill it.

 

[michaelnel]

the Kingsford can I light my BBQ with.

Ewww!

 

[wapiti25]

I understand your frustration but I find a lot of things now do not work as advertised. I like to clean with bore cleaner such as Hoppe's, then I would use something like Kroil or Wd 40 and SCRUB with a cloth/patch on a wooden dowel. I'm not a fan of Wd 40 but it does work as a cleaner sometimes. The suggestion to use lighter fluid is good. The rust preventive materials used after machining/grinding can be stubborn to clean off after they dry/harden, I have used Seafoam injector cleaner to clean then use acetone as it leaves very little residue. I like acetone last as I do not want any coating on the inside of the die except case lube that I applied to the die. Acetone is one of the safer solvents to use as the body can tolerate it better per some of the chemists that I worked with. I will not use Hornady One Shot as case lube. The only use for it I know of is if you want to lube the inside of the case mouth but I prefer the Imperial Dry Neck Lube even for that. I hope your problem has been solved.

 

[Brians356]

the Kingsford can I light my BBQ with.

Ewww!

Very well stated ... I can only guess.

 

[Danattherock]

Wapiti,

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

I forgot I had GM fuel injector cleaner, bought it to clean AR bolt carrier group, works like a charm. I soak BCG in it overnight in a ziplock bag, then return solution to the bottle. This is some carbon eating stuff fo sho. Took one of the more tedious aspects of AR cleaning off the list. Just soak, brush lightly the following day, then oil/grease.

I use Hornady one shot just to smooth things on Dillon 550 loading pistol rounds, it's great for that, but I don't trust it on rifle cases. First case I ever loaded stuck, two years back using this stuff. Liberal coat too, but new die, hmm. Anyway, live and learn, or thats the goal at any rate.

I bought a bottle of Dillon spray to try last week, dented a few shoulders. Just a basic lanolin/etoh mixture, but $12/bottle locally. I used too much obviously, but I didn't spray much, less next time if I use it again. Just bought it to test out. Seems like a fast way to lube many cases. Main interest for it is my Dillon 550 223 loads.

Thankfully, I added a tin of Imperial to an order from Midway last week, and got it in same package with the body die. Talk about luck. I've never used it, but it was needed with the body die so a stroke of good fortune there. I'm likely taking a Dremmel and some flitz to die interior as well.

I usually use RCBS pad and lube. Actually, two pads, making sandwich is faster and I can load pad almost entirely full of cases as only a revolution or two is needed. Rubbing top pad back and forth a few times, and inch or two, with brass between it and bottom pad. Fast, easy, and my hands never get greasy as I use the two RCBS pads (sandwich) to drop lubed cases where I want them. When I'm loading 30-50 on single stage don't matter much. But I also make a plinking load on Dillon 550 with H335 and Hornady 55's. Loaded a thousand recently for my EOtech outfitted Barnes Precision AR-15. That's a lot of cases to lube.




Dan