JB Bore Paste

[Tozguy]

What if a bunch of us grumpy ole retirees, who are fed up with winter, get together to write a book on the Mangement of Bore fouling? What every newbie should have is a manual on how to process any information that is culled fron articles or internet forums. The psychology of it could have a chapter of its own.

 

[markr]

Ya know Jim, there are millions of people out there that could tear up a train wheel with a rubber mallet.
My current 6mm barrel has over 1000 rounds with a thorough cleaning with JB after every 25 to 50 rounds (after every yardage). Will still shoot 5 shots under .200 regularly...it is a Shilen and my Bartlein will do the same. Come on out to a BR match sometime and watch those folks ruin barrels with JB.
Not saying it can't be done (ruined with JB)...just saying the damage more than likely comes from the rod or lack of a good bore guide or improper technique. Rub some Flitz on any piece of metal and watch it turn black...that, in and of itself doesn't prove anything.

And by the way Jim...I didn't call you a fool for making your statement about JB...It may have crossed my mind, but I didn't say it!
Here is a little test for you. Take a patch and a jar of JB, put JB on the patch and rub a piece of cut off SS barrel in the same small area with all the pressure that your comfortable with for 4 hours total. Measure the stub with a good quality .0001 mic before and after and get back to me with the measurement difference.

 

[LHSmith]

Rub some Flitz on any piece of metal and watch it turn black...that, in and of itself doesn't prove anything.

I stated in post #51 that the black is from oxidation...most metals form a layer of oxidation. Just take a bare clean patch and rub vigorously over a stainless barrel (that has not been recently wiped clean) and it turns gray. Of course barrels get ruined by improper cleaning, but to assume the blackened patch = metal removal is drawing a false conclusion. I even took a JB patch and rubbed a small section on a highly polished stainless barrel for 100 passes and cannot detect any change to the mirror-like finish.

 

[Jim See]

Mark, Whats in your barrel that it needs to be scubbed with an abrasive every 25 rounds?

Of the 25 rounds how many foulers do you need to settle your groups down after a cleaning??

I have witnessed on regular occasion f-class competitors hold less than .5 moa verticle at 1000 yards for a 20 shot string with over 80 bullets fired and no cleaning. Holding .2 with a mouse gun at 100 yards not real impressed. Of the half dozen serious f-classers I build rifles for none of them use abrasive on any sort of regular cleaning scheduale.

F-classer John Dunbar was shooting like a 1000 yard BR shooter, off his belly sending 5 down with out the target being pulled for a wind clinic. The resulting group was 1.5" verticle by 3.5" horizontal and all in the x ring at 1000 yards. Thats impressive.

I never called anyone a fool, just pointed out a foolish statment.

My goal here is not to change the way you clean your barrel, you enjoy cleaning I understand that. My goal is to prevent the guy who dosen't have a bore scope and understand exactly what he is doing, from ruining a new barrel by overuse of a product that I feel is completly unnecessary for regular cleanings.

 

[Jim See]

Rub some Flitz on any piece of metal and watch it turn black...that, in and of itself doesn't prove anything.

I stated in post #51 that the black is from oxidation...most metals form a layer of oxidation. Just take a bare clean patch and rub vigorously over a stainless barrel (that has not been recently wiped clean) and it turns gray. Of course barrels get ruined by improper cleaning, but to assume the blackened patch = metal removal is drawing a false conclusion. I even took a JB patch and rubbed a small section on a highly polished stainless barrel for 100 passes and cannot detect any change to the mirror-like finish.

Thats an interesting theory but it dosen't appear to prove out.

I have lathe turned a barrel stub taking .050" off and then rubbed it with an Iosso coated patch, guess what, it was black and the surface finish changes in apearance. Unless it formed a layer of oxidizedization in 5 seconds, i dought that to be the cause of the blackening. I do think there is more than just metal creating the coloration, and could be as simple as a chemical reaction.

 

[Jim See]

Put a cotton buffing drum on a dremmel and charge it with JB. Attack a 320 grit finish barrel blank with it and you can buff it to a mirror in about one minute. The only way that is possible is by removing metal.

 

[Jim See]

And by the way Jim...Here is a little test for you. Take a patch and a jar of JB, put JB on the patch and rub a piece of cut off SS barrel in the same small area with all the pressure that your comfortable with for 4 hours total. Measure the stub with a good quality .0001 mic before and after and get back to me with the measurement difference.


Mark You wouldn't believe the results I get anyway so why don't you try it.

 

[jonbearman]

Jim I dont doubt that you are right that it will remove metal,but a dremel is turning how many rpm's? I think around 3000. You are showing an extreme.I think if you can follow instructions on the jb can then I doubt it will do any remarkable damage.If someone uses it improperly then they are not following the instructions and deserve what they get.Jim ,do you haave a web site?

 

[LHSmith]

Put a cotton buffing drum on a dremmel and charge it with JB. Attack a 320 grit finish barrel blank with it and you can buff it to a mirror in about one minute. The only way that is possible is by removing metal.

This proves that no one should be attaching a dremel to their cleaning rod. My Dremel spins from 5000- 30,000 Rpm. My Iosso patches run considerable slower thru the bore.
I did not contend it does not remove metal....only the black patch is not neccessaily proving the point.
Can you explain why I don't see any blemish to my polished barrel? at least there should be some blemish if metal is being removed.

 

[Jim See]

Yes I do Jon, www.centershotrifles.com

I understand that I am pointing out extreames, but when it is posted on the net that JB can be scrubbed infinitly back and forth in a bore, some poor guy is going to take that to heart. I guess I feel so strongly about it because I see some of the casualties of fellows who just don't understand overdoing it. And I don't feel like they should be getting what they deserve, I feel like they need mentoring like anyone new to rifles should.

As many posters have stated in this thread, they use it and like it, thats fine I am sure they understand the process and risk. About the same amount of guys made statments that they stay away from the abrasives, mostly because they found ways of cleaning that work with-out the potential for damage. A couple even stated that they overused it and damaged a rifle.


If one of the guys who uses JB actually wrote a detailed description of do's and don'ts, how often, why, how much, and the results. And could quantify the amount of copper fouling in the bore after every x number of shots, that would be a helpful contribution,

The guys who use JB or Iosso every 300-500 rounds sparingly. That I understand and am in no way saying this is overdoing it.

 

[Jim See]

Put a cotton buffing drum on a dremmel and charge it with JB. Attack a 320 grit finish barrel blank with it and you can buff it to a mirror in about one minute. The only way that is possible is by removing metal.

This proves that no one should be attaching a dremel to their cleaning rod. My Dremel spins from 5000- 30,000 Rpm. My Iosso patches run considerable slower thru the bore.
I did not contend it does not remove metal....only the black patch is neccessaily proving the point.
Can you explain why I don't see any blemish to my polished barrel? at least there should be some blemish if metal is being removed.

You don't see any blemishes because YOU are POLISHING the bore, you are removing the grainular structure that the barrel lapper put in the bore during manf. Barrel lapping by the barrel maker is not done with 1000 grit. the lead lap is charged with somthing between 120-150 grit. It imbeds in the lead lap and as the barrel is stroked the abrasive breaks down and leaves a finer finish in the range of 300-400. By polishing the bore you are creating a finish that puts more barrel steel in contact with the bullet jacket, increasing heat and galling of the jacket.

Read this article and the discussion and it will be better explained.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/rifle-barrel-break-in-1.php

Read what Dan Lijia writes on the subject, I found this article after actul research and writting my own opinions.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm

 

[Jim See]

Gale McMillian references to JB

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12582

The below is a post from another site, this fellow likly didn't hurt the Handi-rifle as they are as ugly as black iron pipe inside, but notice he scrubbed for 1 hour and it kept bringing out dirty patches. I guess thats why God made factory barrels, so newbies got somthing to learn on.


Thread Tools

12-15-2007, 08:31 AM #1
jerry
Ret First Sergeant





Join Date: Mar 2002
Blog Entries: 2 JB bore paste

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I was kind of reluctant to try, but bought some JB bore paste to try. I hope to break in the handi rifle soon & thought I'd try it.

I gave the bore a swabbing with standard solvents, got some crud out as usual.
I took some JB to it and the patches just kept coming out dirty. Over and over.

At the start the bore just didn't look right kind of like some of the fibers from the patch stuck. Looked like the bore had hair growing on it.

After an hour with the JB, it's nice and bright and smooth looking.

Neat stuff. Now I have to get out with the Handi.
Like

 

[Tozguy]

Maybe we are all a little right and a little wrong too.
Only a sofisticated chemical analysis will tell us what is on a black JB patch. Chances are real good that there are trace amounts of steel on it. How much metal is really whats important. Chances are that the amount removed from proper usage will not diminish accuracy to a measureable extent and not shorten the life of a barrel before its time is up for other reasons.
My beef with abrasive cleaners is that we are abrading clean parts of the bore at the same time that it is working on the fouling. This abrasion on clean steel is probably much slower than it is on a carbon or copper streak, but the thought of it still bothers me. Any cleaner does more than we can easily observe so it is best to proceed with caution. No point in using JB if you don't need to. A quality well conditioned match barrel might not need heavy or frequent cleaning sessions. On the other hand, some barrels don't get cleaned enough. Many a barrel that has lost its edge has been revived by a good JB treatment.
Apply JB to the same spot on the outside of a barrel often enough and it will blemish visibly.

 

[bozo699]

Jim See,
Very good articles you posted, definitely worth the time to read, thank you. I might put up with Len's slow site and re=read your article on cleaning, I remember I learned a lot the last time I read it. I am probably all wrong on this but I do occasionally use JB paste on a patch soaked with BBS on a jag, I use this when I have a clean bore everywhere but the first few inches of the chamber,not carbon fouled I use a brush for that but heavy copper build up in the throat, Weatherby's free bored rifles were terrible for that, anyway I will run some JB in that area only, you can feel the area with heavy deposits. I really enjoyed reading Gale McMillan posts on the firing line. I used to clean my rifles to bare metal every 20 rounds religiously, I now only clean when I see my accuracy fall off, each rifle is different and I have learned about when I will see the accuracy fall off. I also don't clean them to bare metal anymore, clean until I don't have black coming out on the patches and or by feel, maybe a couple of times a year will I take them to the bone, Thanks again.
Wayne.

 

[sailhertoo]

I just JB'd my 308 that I thought was shot out, it just shot a 195 ,195,190(opps,me). I just don't know.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Like I said clean it as you see fit. Everything in this sport comes with a cost. I laugh at some of the comments. I'm enjoying this thread, keep it up.

 

[newboy]

hells bells this stuff if hard as it gets(JB) i had some deep scraches on the camming side of my bolt lugs .
I placed some JB on the internal and rear side of my bolt lugs and worked the bolt about 15 times in the action and the JB had cleaned the marks of the lugs .
thats some hard core grinding paste .

 

[GLC]

Just my two penny worth:
I had (have still got) a once superb 7mm boo boo barrel for my f open gun, I won the Highland open comp back in 08 with it,after the comp I noticed some serious fouling (72 grains of powder and a 180 Berger) which I could not easily remove, so I used JB sparingly smoothed on a patch and short stroked the badly fouled area, this did the trick, nice shiny bore, two month later we had the second national at the same range, I came last! ??? The rifle would hardly hold the 3 ring.
This may not have been the JB's fault however the barrel had less than 500 rnds and appeared good at the time.(same load/everything identical)
I will not be "trying" it again.

As people have said it works for some and not others but be careful!
I use solvent and a bronze brush/patches, this seems to work
for me on all of my 7mm F class rifles.

 

[dogdude]

Guy's that don't use JB are welcome on my relay any time. need all the help i can get!! dogdude

 

[BigBamBoo]

Interesting...seems Krieger has changed their tune. Here is a list of some of the top barrel makers and shooters advice on JB from last year:

Chris Dichter, Owner, Pac-Nor Barreling
"My preference is cleaning every 20-30 rounds. We settled on the Witches' Brew from Dave Holland, which is 1200 micron-inch aluminum oxide in Kroil. It removes anything that isn't gun-barrel steel. It gets carbon and copper out very effectively. Be careful with JB and abrasives--A JB'd patch around a bristle brush can become a lap more than a cleaning agent."

John Krieger, Krieger Barrels
"I've been asked about the abrasive bore cleaners. My advice is to proceed with caution. Use JB sparingly. A JB-coated patch becomes more of a surface lap. I've seen people actually lap a taper in their bore using JB on a patch. You want to clean your barrel, not change its dimensions! I'd just put JB on a bristle brush if you feel compelled to use it."


Gary Schneider, Schneider Rifle Barrels
"For the carbon build-up in the throat area, I don't think you need to treat that differently than fouling elsewhere in the bore. I discourage the use of abrasives. JB is a 1200-grit lapping compound. When you use it aggressively, some of that black you see on the patch is barrel steel. JB and Rem-Clean can remove steel and, in my opinion, used to excess, these products will decrease the life of the barrel. Yes I know Tony Boyer uses lots of JB. But he keeps a large inventory of barrels and he has no compunction about wearing out a barrel. Most shooters demand longer barrel life and hence should avoid using abrasives."


Bill Shehane, Two-Time IBS 1000-Yard Shooter of the Year, Owner D&B Supply
"For normal cleaning I use regular Montana X-Treme liquid solvent, with Montana X-Treme Bore Creme every other match or so (100-150 rounds). I use 50 BMG for break-in or if I have a barrel that is giving a problem with copper fouling. (Using the 50 BMG during a break-in procedure, after 15-20 rounds the new barrel is ready to go.) I used to use JB pretty religiously every 100-150 rounds. Now I use the MT X-Treme bore cream in a syringe and it works just as well as the JB and it's not as abrasive. If you use it in the throat area every 100-150 rounds I find you can keep the carbon build-up under control."


Michelle Sutton, Co-Owner, Hart Rifle Barrels
"I've also personally witnessed the damage that can be done with over-aggressive cleaning. I had one barrel that I cleaned using Rem-Clean on a patch over a brass brush. (Rem-Clean is an abrasive similar to JB.) I made 10 round-trips through the bore, running the brush just a bit past the muzzle on each cycle. Then I went out and shot the gun. The groups were terrible and the last two inches of the barrel was packed with copper. I inspected what had been a nice shiny, sharp crown and it looked like it had been bead-blasted. I then measured the bore diameter at the crown and found that the groove dimension had increased .0002" (two ten-thousandths). I ended up cutting a half-inch off the barrel and recrowning it, but the barrel still shot very poorly. It basically had been ruined for competitive purposes.

Chris Dichter has observed that JB on a patch can work like a lap. I personally saw how Rem-Clean on a patch can behave similarly."