I only noted that my guns have been weighed. They could be at any match, however unlikely. I would only expect weighing at a registered match where records could be set.
Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook
- Thread starter Keith Glasscock
- Start date
And if you have spent a couple thousand on a perfectly legal rest at the time of purchase that is now no longer legal, may require hundreds of dollars of modification, and that you aren't even completely sure how to make compliant, that is somehow OK?
Maybe we should include that AR15 you own, the "large capacity" magazine you own, the vehicle you have that no longer meets government mileage or emission standards, the paint on your house or the type of roof, should your homeowners association change the rules, and the list goes on.
A small minority have made a ruling that affects a large number of shooters. Until these back-room players identify themselves and their motives, I have nothing good to say about this, and I doubt I would have anything good to say to them even then.
Agreed!
And if you are making this ruling, how about a grace period before instating the rule. Give competitors time to make their equipment legal.
I spent my yearly budget on components already. And now I can't legally shoot a match unless I spend more $ on modifying equipment that was legal. Money I didn't budget for!
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Some of these specific issues regarding the legality of certain front rest designs have been already discussed previously at this forum, so it's not like no one knew this might be coming. The bottom line is that someone will always be pushing the envelope with respect to equipment designs that may be questionable in terms of the rules. That is simply what happens in competitive sports. However, when someone does this, they really can't be all that upset when the Rules Committee comes back and says, "No. We don't think so. That's illegal". If people are really honest about it, it's simply all part of the game being played.
I think the much more important question here is exactly who wrote these new rules and by what reasoning did they feel the changes were necessary? I would personally like to know exactly who is making up rules for F-Class, and when they feel the need to change the rules what their reasoning was for doing so. In my opinion, decisions regarding the types of front rests and bipods that can be used in F-Class should be made solely by F-Class shooters.
I think the much more important question here is exactly who wrote these new rules and by what reasoning did they feel the changes were necessary? I would personally like to know exactly who is making up rules for F-Class, and when they feel the need to change the rules what their reasoning was for doing so. In my opinion, decisions regarding the types of front rests and bipods that can be used in F-Class should be made solely by F-Class shooters.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Welcome to the utter disconnect between the people making the rules, and the general population of people actually shooting the sport.
Was there any draft form of these changes floated to any significant number of competitors? Not that I've ever heard of. Someone, either with an axe to grind or a whining grievance about something, submits some concern or change to the board. It gets considered by some anonymous group of people - the names of which aren't exactly publicly available, and the majority of whom don't actually shoot F-class - make decisions about it.
Then six months or so later, the bomb gets dropped on us, the shooters.
Tell me again why we pay the NRA to sanction matches?
As I stated in my original post, these rules making legally purchased products illegal is a slippy slope that our government wants to tread. I have no use for those types in this sport.
California is soon to mandate that all new cars sold be electric. If they decided to make a rule that ALL cars were to be electric on that same date, should everyone have to go buy a new car? Same thing in my opinion.
Maybe the next bullet design will have too much of a ballistic advantage. Maybe someone designs a more efficient cartridge design that is deemed too accurate. Perhaps a particular smith just machines too nice a chamber or beds an action too nicely. Lets have some some small group of people decide, shall we?. If we followed that logic we would all be competing with muskets.
Just one more reason to be done with the NRA in my opinion. This ruling does nothing to better the sport or protect the integrity of F-Class or the shooting sports in general.
Well, I think new bullets, powders and such are fair to use, as opposed to seeking an unfair advantage, but yes. an advantage is something we do, and generally should seek.
This rest rule has some history to it. I’m not so sure that any current producers of rests were ever caught off guard because the first rule change predates the newer introductions, and it truly was passed to prevent just one single rest design, which they no doubt saw or heard about, and either steered clear of, or consciously made a beeline straight to.
The rule until a few years back, when the changes started, basically said a front rest head with sandbags “may” be used. That is permissive language, that does not exclude by itself, any other kinds of rests or heads. In fact I used a Harris bipod in Open through 2015 and there is no question that it is a legal Open rest. A bipod in Open was likely the reason that the original rule did not say that sandbags were “required”, because of course there is no sand in a bipod.
Let’s suppose the sandbag rule is intended force us to deal with torque and right side rifle cant, and further to penalize BC chasers with big magnums, so as to promote wind calling skills.
Ok, fine, but the current rule about bag deformity is skirted. Talk about a rule that is not applied, I have never seen a bag manipulated in a match, while I have seen rifles weighed. Visible deformation to the touch of a finger is the height of vagueness and ambiguity.
Further, that we would have to restraighten our rifles every shot or few on “loose fill”, is something that not a single open shooter does, or would put up with. That’s called breaking the position in the rest. We go great lengths to size brass, lube bolts, tighten bolsters and so on to make sure this doesn’t happen. Technically, if we haven’t “clamped” our rifles or overpacked our bags, we should have to twist and reset the rifle every single shot, but we do the opposite.
Maybe it's time.
ushpsa.com
United States Highpower Shooting Association
A shooting organization run for clubs by clubs
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lawman29
Gold $$ Contributor
I disagree. My interpretation was that a front rest head with sand bags may be used - period. You could use a front rest with sand bags or the following: the description of a rolled, jacket, towel, or sand bag etc. Bi-pods and slings could be used but counted to the overall weight. The intent was you didn't have to use a front with sand bags but could use the other listed items instead.
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The other interpretation is silly. That would be saying we can use anything as a front rest but just for the hell of it the rules give us one example.
After years of everybody using 'a bag', somehow, somebody lawyered out that a system of rollers and micro bags is equivalent to 'a bag'.
lawman29
Gold $$ Contributor
Not interested in going down the path of our fellow benchrest competitors....NBRSA, IBS and then the Great Big World.... We're never all going to agree, but we need to work through our differences and make the sport stronger, instead of splintering into different camps and pointing fingers at each other...Maybe it's time.
United States Highpower Shooting Association
A shooting organization run for clubs by clubs
NBRSA & IBS
NBRSA & IBS Two kissing cousins. Both have a piece the of action in USA benchrest. Both the IBS & NBRSA have members on the World Teams that compete for Team USA. Both talk the crap depends on which Range you shoot on in a particular day. Let's go back when there was neither. I have to admit I...
forum.accurateshooter.com
Seems to be the same reasoning that gives us two political parties that don't represent the majority of people in the country rather than creating one that does. Powerless to change the system because it's too radical a thought and there is too much money and power in play.
Sorry, but not a Democrat or a Republican
Enough political stuff. I yield.
I don’t get to shoot much f class, but what you said above is so true
It is happening in the IBS at this very time! Eventually shooters will tire of it and go elsewhere to shoot a organization that has less rules and is governed without bias
The two ways the Open rest rule has started out are:
“F-Class Open Rifle (F-O) - The rifle may be supported by any means which provides no positive mechanical method for returning it to its precise point of aim for the prior shot.”
And in 2020.
F-Class Open Rifle (F-O) - The F-Open rifle may be supported by a front rest bag, which may be fully adjustable for position but may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to its prior point of aim from the previous shot.
The first opening says nothing one way or the other about sandbags, and the second opening says explicitly that sandbags may be used, and they may be fully adjustable, and it implies that this adjustability is not the same thing as a mechanical method for returning the rifle to its prior point of aim.
You could just as easily surmise that the rule is confirming a certain kind of rest is ok, as you could that now you “must” use a sandbag. KZIN, it also says the sandbag “may” be adjustable, does this mean it must be??
Hotrod6.5
Site $$ Sponsor
This may not apply to this new NRA ruling but here is what the International F-Class rules state:
F1.11. The spirit of the F-Class Rules is to encourage innovation, and Match Referees and Committees will bear this philosophy in mind in ruling on issues not covered by these rules.
F1.11. The spirit of the F-Class Rules is to encourage innovation, and Match Referees and Committees will bear this philosophy in mind in ruling on issues not covered by these rules.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The potential flaw in your argument is that the product(s) were ever legal to begin with, even under the previous version of the rules. There were plenty of people that believed they were not legal. Put simply, an illegal product doesn't somehow become legal just because a bunch of people bought them and now want to use them. Clearly, it is a potential risk to buy and use a product that even might not be legal, until such time as its legality is unquestionably established by the sanctioned officiating body in writing. Unfortunately, that burden falls on the end user/purchaser. If in fact the items in question in this discussion/rule change were ever officially declared legal by the NRA in writing before the current rule change, then I would completely agree with you.
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So the seb neo x with teflon sides is illegal also?
Hotrod6.5
Site $$ Sponsor
At the 2020 SWNs the NRA official with the striped shirt along with Mid Tompkins determined my original 5-Axis top to be a legal F-Class rest. The only issue at that time was the small sand bags. The issue or question was, could the deform with finger pressure. Since they do, my top was declared good to go. The rollers were never the issue. I have seen all manner of solid sides on rests before mine came out and since mine has come out. As far as the bottom bag, I have seen sand packed and strapped down so tight that it can’t deform so this is all becoming pretty subjective and arbitrary in my opinion. I personally love innovation and new ideas and I like the conversation until it becomes a popularity contest. And the winners are determined by a few folks nobody knows.
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