Is The 300BLK Subsonic a 200 yard Deer Killer?
- Thread starter AP2020
- Start date
As I said before, I would do it at limited range with the right projectile. No different than bow hunting with the right broad head. A friend of mine was a pioneer at sub hunting, advocating close distances and correct shot placement.
I see a lot of fellows on this board that shoot deer with non expanding match bullets. OK, if you can do it. Can you do it 100% of the time, every time - probably not. There is no difference in the two as long as the distances are appropriate for the shot. At least the Lehigh expands down to 750 fps, match bullets don't expand at all.
The bottom line is how good a hunter are you? If someone is able to consistently kill quickly with any platform, be it SMKs out of a 6.5 - 284 at 500 or Lehighs out of a 300 BLK at 100 you'll never have my criticism.
I choose to do what I do because I am not lucky, I don't like tracking, though I do it well and know my limits and would rather not push them. The worst I ever felt was losing an animal due to a bad shot, no need to re live that.
I have been shooting 300 BLK for 6.5 years and it's a great hunting cartridge in supersonic in the thick woods.
Subs require an almost ninja style mindset that rivals long distance shooters problems only condensed.
That being said, while an advocate of the cartridge, I always understand the concern of real shooters when discussing this with people that they have no idea of their experiences.
Though the the bullet may work at said distance, I still stand by my original statement that 200 yard sub hunting should be left to folks that have lived, slept, ate with their rifle and shot it every day at different distances. I have to many to pay that much attention to one.
This is a topic that generally draws a lot of hate on different forums. I have seen it and don't want to to be the subject of it here. Suffice to say there are folks that are completely capable of this feat. I'm not willing to try it.
The 300 blackout isn't but a 308 subsonic or 30br subsonic truly is.
Same bullet, same weights, same speed - uh....... I'm trying to advocate for folks knowing their platform, not what cartridge they are shooting. 30 cal subsonic is 30 cal subsonic. How many 300 BLK subs have you shot at 200? I have shot hundreds - at paper and ballistic gel to back up what I say. I doubt those two cartridges do any better at that speed.
Getting out of this now because most are not reading the entire thread and it's going south quick..........
The rule of thumb for deer is 1,000 lbs of KE correct? I would just stick with that. I really like the 300 BO (I mean look at my username 
) but I would make sure I'm getting 30-30 performance out of it with a good bullet and keep all shots within 200 yards.
Tracking, finding, and dispatching wounded/suffering animals isn't fun. Made the mistake of shooting a 200lb hog with a .223 55 grain soft point. I bagged him but I'll never make that mistake again.
) but I would make sure I'm getting 30-30 performance out of it with a good bullet and keep all shots within 200 yards. Tracking, finding, and dispatching wounded/suffering animals isn't fun. Made the mistake of shooting a 200lb hog with a .223 55 grain soft point. I bagged him but I'll never make that mistake again.
Another good rule of thumb is just because you can doesn't mean you should.
A lot of people get confused on the 300BO. It is really two separate cartridges (at least power levels):
1) Lighter bullets at full power loads (supersonic) that comes very close to the power level of a 30/30 that has killed deer very efficiently for a LONG time.
- The full power loads at modest ranges work just fine. They have a mild recoil & report. The only advantage however is a 30 caliber cartridge in a 2.26” COAL. (Fits in the AR-15).
2) Downloaded powder charge to eliminate the supersonic crack of the bullet (subsonic loads).
Subsonic loads are only sensible for suppressed rifles. Without suppression, the report is still comparable to a shotgun blast (not as severe as a centerfire but still plenty loud). For just a little more noise you can get “real rifle” performance. However, add a suppressor and report is similar (or can be even quieter) to a pneumatic staple gun. The bullet hitting is louder than the other end… Still the type rifle used, powder, “muffler” efficiency & volume; are factors in noise level. Some are noticeable & some can be downright discreet.
Here in lies an appealing quality that may attract certain people to the 300BO & I think is one of the main factors the cartridge has gained popularity.
Yes, you can download a 30BR, 308Win or even a 300WM down to subsonic velocities (~1100 fps depending on environmental conditions). However, if you’re trying to get the best accuracy; the smaller case volume provides the lowest speed variables (es, sd VERY important once doping at the speed of smell). (If you’re after the best you can get in subs, the 300BO is about it).
As stated earlier, shooting subs in 300BO brings the same perils of the LR shooter into a compact zone. The perfect load to eliminate vertical dispersion is exponentially difficult & the wind also multiplies by scores as the bullets is in flight for a LONG time… However, at sub velocities the drag is completely different and the ballistic coefficient of a bullet is WAY less meaningful. It’s a different set of rules… Also, if your limiting factor is speed, but one can get a little more performance from increasing weight & why you see the 200+gr bullets shot in the BO.
I have played with a BO for about a year now, all at subsonic velocities in a bolt gun. My barrel is a 1-7 twist & capable of shooting about any 30 caliber bullet made. Still at sub velocities, your virtually creating a 30caliber 22LR. Once you understand that, you are good to go (expect to dope anything past ~60 yards or so).
After trajectory, the #1 thing in subsonic hunting is bullet performance. As stated earlier, all the normal 30caliber bullets are designed around centerfire velocities. They WILL NOT deform (open) at subsonic velocities. However, there are a few bullets out there that are designed to do so (Lehigh, Maker, Outlaw, Blackout bullets). These CAN change the entire performance of this cartridge.
I have shot game/vermin/opportunity targets with the 208 Amax, 220 Sierra RN, 200 Maker (sub designed), & 220 Outlaw (sub designed). Even squirrels will jump, flip, kick, run off a ways when shot with the 208 amax; unless way up front. I feel that the very pointy bullet acts more like a needle (think hypodermic) that expands the tissue & drills. The more blunt bullets do better at tearing or damaging the tissue and seem to put down small stuff better.
Out of these 4 bullets only one was “dramatic” on small stuff at sub velocities. The Outlaw bullet… It has a fluted jacket with GAPPING hollow-point and 4 small “tips” that expand very quickly. The 4” tips” separate and the copper jacket folds back. The remaining base & jacket stay together & in the media I’ve shot into retains ~80-85% of its weight. This bullet will tear starlings or tweedy birds in half & leave a 5+ foot streak of feathers (way different than the pellet gun looking wounds the 208 Amax leave on the same).
After playing with the BO & shooting some small stuff up to raccoon size, I decided to only run bullets designed to expand as sub velocities on anything living. (The other bullets still work great on paper).
The past year I also shot 5 deer with the 300BO (in the body, not head/neck shots). Four with the 200gr Maker bullet (solid copper designed very similar to the Lehigh pictured in this thread, but with only 3 pedals); and one with the Outlaw bullets. All 5 deer where shot from 50-109 yards. I realize this is a pretty small sample but a few take-a-ways:
-Broadside through the lungs, (perfect bow style shot) deer were found ~50-70 yards away with skimpy to modest bloodtrails (but good enough to follow easy enough through somewhat thick brush even with a flashlight).
-There was surprisingly significant trauma inside the ribcage on most. A couple was side bloodshot similar to a normal full power load.
-When deer were in group, they all deer scattered even though bullet hitting the animal was louder than the rifle report. (Just like shooting into a group with a bow)
-Shoulder shots, the bullet would deviate from straight line inside the deer (bounce around).
-Shoulder shots where shorter retrievals but less blood-trail. One was DRT from shoulder shot & that was with the Outlaw bullet.
We have a liberal hunting season in NC & I get to kill a lot of deer (and see a lot of deer killed). I will say that a typical hunting round (243, 260, 270, 7mag, 30/06 etc) is more effective at killing deer than running subsonics. Immensely, the flat line trajectory of those cartridges makes it even easier.
However, I found the 300BO sub’d to be plenty effective enough to take deer (WITH BULLETS DESIGNED FOR SUB VELOCITIES). In fact, I found it grades better killer than archery equipment. Not just the range but with expanding bullets, you get very similar lethality to broadheads, but with the addition of being able to shoot into the shoulder (a no-no for archery). And of course it’s well known that head & neck shots will result in a dead deer with any rifle also (something else you don’t want to do with a bow). The 300BO is no exception & with time spent; plenty accurate enough to do so.
This argument reminds me a lot of the “is 223Rem enough for deer” discussions. Those that “think” tend one way & those that have experience tend another. In either case… both are way more efficient weapons at taking deer than archery. Yet, you never hear the “ethical” question when it comes to the stick & string. But yeah I get the extreme range thing with the BO. It's REALLY pushing it...
If you’re wanting to kill deer, there is way better cartridges than the 300BO (especially in the subsonic performance). But if you want to try something different, or need to be extra quiet (hunting near homes or livestock) it can absolutely work. You just need to put a little time into it (beyond 50 yards) if you want anything back…
1) Lighter bullets at full power loads (supersonic) that comes very close to the power level of a 30/30 that has killed deer very efficiently for a LONG time.
- The full power loads at modest ranges work just fine. They have a mild recoil & report. The only advantage however is a 30 caliber cartridge in a 2.26” COAL. (Fits in the AR-15).
2) Downloaded powder charge to eliminate the supersonic crack of the bullet (subsonic loads).
Subsonic loads are only sensible for suppressed rifles. Without suppression, the report is still comparable to a shotgun blast (not as severe as a centerfire but still plenty loud). For just a little more noise you can get “real rifle” performance. However, add a suppressor and report is similar (or can be even quieter) to a pneumatic staple gun. The bullet hitting is louder than the other end… Still the type rifle used, powder, “muffler” efficiency & volume; are factors in noise level. Some are noticeable & some can be downright discreet.
Here in lies an appealing quality that may attract certain people to the 300BO & I think is one of the main factors the cartridge has gained popularity.
Yes, you can download a 30BR, 308Win or even a 300WM down to subsonic velocities (~1100 fps depending on environmental conditions). However, if you’re trying to get the best accuracy; the smaller case volume provides the lowest speed variables (es, sd VERY important once doping at the speed of smell). (If you’re after the best you can get in subs, the 300BO is about it).
As stated earlier, shooting subs in 300BO brings the same perils of the LR shooter into a compact zone. The perfect load to eliminate vertical dispersion is exponentially difficult & the wind also multiplies by scores as the bullets is in flight for a LONG time… However, at sub velocities the drag is completely different and the ballistic coefficient of a bullet is WAY less meaningful. It’s a different set of rules… Also, if your limiting factor is speed, but one can get a little more performance from increasing weight & why you see the 200+gr bullets shot in the BO.
I have played with a BO for about a year now, all at subsonic velocities in a bolt gun. My barrel is a 1-7 twist & capable of shooting about any 30 caliber bullet made. Still at sub velocities, your virtually creating a 30caliber 22LR. Once you understand that, you are good to go (expect to dope anything past ~60 yards or so).
After trajectory, the #1 thing in subsonic hunting is bullet performance. As stated earlier, all the normal 30caliber bullets are designed around centerfire velocities. They WILL NOT deform (open) at subsonic velocities. However, there are a few bullets out there that are designed to do so (Lehigh, Maker, Outlaw, Blackout bullets). These CAN change the entire performance of this cartridge.
I have shot game/vermin/opportunity targets with the 208 Amax, 220 Sierra RN, 200 Maker (sub designed), & 220 Outlaw (sub designed). Even squirrels will jump, flip, kick, run off a ways when shot with the 208 amax; unless way up front. I feel that the very pointy bullet acts more like a needle (think hypodermic) that expands the tissue & drills. The more blunt bullets do better at tearing or damaging the tissue and seem to put down small stuff better.
Out of these 4 bullets only one was “dramatic” on small stuff at sub velocities. The Outlaw bullet… It has a fluted jacket with GAPPING hollow-point and 4 small “tips” that expand very quickly. The 4” tips” separate and the copper jacket folds back. The remaining base & jacket stay together & in the media I’ve shot into retains ~80-85% of its weight. This bullet will tear starlings or tweedy birds in half & leave a 5+ foot streak of feathers (way different than the pellet gun looking wounds the 208 Amax leave on the same).
After playing with the BO & shooting some small stuff up to raccoon size, I decided to only run bullets designed to expand as sub velocities on anything living. (The other bullets still work great on paper).
The past year I also shot 5 deer with the 300BO (in the body, not head/neck shots). Four with the 200gr Maker bullet (solid copper designed very similar to the Lehigh pictured in this thread, but with only 3 pedals); and one with the Outlaw bullets. All 5 deer where shot from 50-109 yards. I realize this is a pretty small sample but a few take-a-ways:
-Broadside through the lungs, (perfect bow style shot) deer were found ~50-70 yards away with skimpy to modest bloodtrails (but good enough to follow easy enough through somewhat thick brush even with a flashlight).
-There was surprisingly significant trauma inside the ribcage on most. A couple was side bloodshot similar to a normal full power load.
-When deer were in group, they all deer scattered even though bullet hitting the animal was louder than the rifle report. (Just like shooting into a group with a bow)
-Shoulder shots, the bullet would deviate from straight line inside the deer (bounce around).
-Shoulder shots where shorter retrievals but less blood-trail. One was DRT from shoulder shot & that was with the Outlaw bullet.
We have a liberal hunting season in NC & I get to kill a lot of deer (and see a lot of deer killed). I will say that a typical hunting round (243, 260, 270, 7mag, 30/06 etc) is more effective at killing deer than running subsonics. Immensely, the flat line trajectory of those cartridges makes it even easier.
However, I found the 300BO sub’d to be plenty effective enough to take deer (WITH BULLETS DESIGNED FOR SUB VELOCITIES). In fact, I found it grades better killer than archery equipment. Not just the range but with expanding bullets, you get very similar lethality to broadheads, but with the addition of being able to shoot into the shoulder (a no-no for archery). And of course it’s well known that head & neck shots will result in a dead deer with any rifle also (something else you don’t want to do with a bow). The 300BO is no exception & with time spent; plenty accurate enough to do so.
This argument reminds me a lot of the “is 223Rem enough for deer” discussions. Those that “think” tend one way & those that have experience tend another. In either case… both are way more efficient weapons at taking deer than archery. Yet, you never hear the “ethical” question when it comes to the stick & string. But yeah I get the extreme range thing with the BO. It's REALLY pushing it...
If you’re wanting to kill deer, there is way better cartridges than the 300BO (especially in the subsonic performance). But if you want to try something different, or need to be extra quiet (hunting near homes or livestock) it can absolutely work. You just need to put a little time into it (beyond 50 yards) if you want anything back…
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AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Deer with a 300 BO at 200 yards is just retarded to even consider.
Coolridge, I appreciate your insight.
Coolridge, I appreciate your insight.
I eliminate BO with DO.
No more retarded than shoot a deer at 400 with a non expanding match bullet with a MV of 3000 fps.
Great if you can do it, bad juju if you screw up. Same deal, I absolutely see no difference in the two.
That being said, dead is dead. There is no degree of dead. My 300 Blks kill deer as dead as my 260 AI.
Sub hunting at 200 yards with the correct bullet is certainly doable - but as said in this thread ad nauseam, a person would really have to be honest with themselves about their skill level and set up. It's not for your average guy for sure.
Great if you can do it, bad juju if you screw up. Same deal, I absolutely see no difference in the two.
That being said, dead is dead. There is no degree of dead. My 300 Blks kill deer as dead as my 260 AI.
Sub hunting at 200 yards with the correct bullet is certainly doable - but as said in this thread ad nauseam, a person would really have to be honest with themselves about their skill level and set up. It's not for your average guy for sure.
300 BO subsonic is dumb. Not 300 BO properly loaded. You're getting .30-30 performance at 200 and the .30-30 has killed more deer than all the damn rifle cartridges in the world combined!!
Not saying that aggressively just trying to make a point and be a little funny.
As was stated previously, just because you can doesn't mean you should. That said, I have seen way more deer lost to poor shot placement than to poor terminal ballistics. Add to that very poor tracking ability. The OP does seem to have at least spent some time exploring this and also obviously spends the prerequisite practice/range time. JMHO
"That said, I have seen way more deer lost to poor shot placement than to poor terminal ballistics".
Add the two together and you have a great recipe
Just a thought the original Berger J-4 VLD's were non expanding match bullets until they put them in a box marked "Hunting VLD" You also have the 162 A-Max non expanding match bullet
Add the two together and you have a great recipe
Just a thought the original Berger J-4 VLD's were non expanding match bullets until they put them in a box marked "Hunting VLD" You also have the 162 A-Max non expanding match bullet
http://www.hornady.com/bullets Check out Hornady's description of the A-max."That said, I have seen way more deer lost to poor shot placement than to poor terminal ballistics".
Add the two together and you have a great recipe
Just a thought the original Berger J-4 VLD's were non expanding match bullets until they put them in a box marked "Hunting VLD" You also have the 162 A-Max non expanding match bullet
Don't need to, the piles of cull deer have told me all I need to know. All I'm saying is don't believe everything you read, trust your results and be honest with yourself.
hpshooter
Gold $$ Contributor
"BO subsonic is dumb."
I believe it depends on what you use it for.
In my case it is for nighttime nuisance varmint control around horses and cattle. Mostly possums and feral cats. A SS load BO in a 700 Remington with a Yankee Hill suppressor quietly dispatches these critters instantly at ranges up to 60 yards. The suppressed .22 rim fire with Eley SS hp. ammo or the segmented SS CCI is good but does not always anchor the target even when hit between the nose and front shoulders.
Would I use any SS .30cal round on deer? Not unless I was in a need food for survival situation . If hunting on a crop damage permit at night, a suppressor would be used to reduce the muzzle report on a normal velocity round from a 6MM or larger round so as not to rattle the folks in the farmhouse too badly.
One of Chandlers books on sniping in Vietnam references the SOG experimentation with suppressed .458 mags in Asia for low signature and adequate energy to take out a target. Adequate energy and an open wound channel combined with shot placement is essential for any ethical harvesting of game IMO.
Just one old farts thoughts.
I believe it depends on what you use it for.
In my case it is for nighttime nuisance varmint control around horses and cattle. Mostly possums and feral cats. A SS load BO in a 700 Remington with a Yankee Hill suppressor quietly dispatches these critters instantly at ranges up to 60 yards. The suppressed .22 rim fire with Eley SS hp. ammo or the segmented SS CCI is good but does not always anchor the target even when hit between the nose and front shoulders.
Would I use any SS .30cal round on deer? Not unless I was in a need food for survival situation . If hunting on a crop damage permit at night, a suppressor would be used to reduce the muzzle report on a normal velocity round from a 6MM or larger round so as not to rattle the folks in the farmhouse too badly.
One of Chandlers books on sniping in Vietnam references the SOG experimentation with suppressed .458 mags in Asia for low signature and adequate energy to take out a target. Adequate energy and an open wound channel combined with shot placement is essential for any ethical harvesting of game IMO.
Just one old farts thoughts.
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