Is The 300BLK Subsonic a 200 yard Deer Killer?

[savagedasher]

The problem I see is the bullet is too slow to work properly Larry

 

[rebel]

The problem I see is the bullet is too slow to work properly Larry

No Larry, it's not. Lehigh, Maker and outlaw state, as previously said have designed bullets that open up down to 750 fps. The all copper bullets are dramatic and deadly. Man, I start off fussing at the OP for sensationalizing what I consider quite a feat and end up defending a cartridge that I have intimate knowledge of, have shot a ton of, killed game with.
I joined here because of the knowledge of most about ballistics here. Larry, you were one of the folks that impressed me most. Read up on what technology has been developed in subsonic projectiles. I have tested the Makers and the Lehighs and even had a hand, along with others, in improving some designs with Paul from Maker.
They do not fail to open at proper sub speeds. Think 800 fps broadhead.

 

[rebel]

So we may apply a bit of logic. A 194 LH ME bullet with a MV of 1000 fps zeroed at 100 yards does this -
Drop 35.5 inches at 200 yards at a velocity of 942 fps. Minimum expansion is 750 fps and it doesn't hit that until after 1000 yards. It crosses that mark at 785 fps. With an advertised BC ( G1) of .638 it retains both speed and energy at distance.
Problems occur with precision, ES and SDs being high (unless using fast pistol powders in a bolt action) causing really bad vertical strings. Past 100 yards it becomes difficult to place the bullet where it needs to be unless one has shot one load, in one rifle a whole lot. Then having a scope you can dope that much or holdover marks you are intimately familiar with.
The link I provided earlier in the thread shows a man who does this professionally and successfully. I still wouldn't try it personally, not because I think its not ethical, but because I haven't the time to spend with one rifle to become that proficient.
edited to make my ramblings readable.

 

[SheepDog]

Even though the bullet will expand at the extremely low velocities you still need to get that bullet deep enough to damage enough vital functions to kill quickly. I can see that happening if the bullet slides in between ribs and hits the heart and both lungs but it is going to be like sticking the deer with a stick (like an arrow without the point).

 

[people]

No more retarded than shoot a deer at 400 with a non expanding match bullet with a MV of 3000 fps.
Great if you can do it, bad juju if you screw up. Same deal, I absolutely see no difference in the two.
That being said, dead is dead. There is no degree of dead. My 300 Blks kill deer as dead as my 260 AI.
Sub hunting at 200 yards with the correct bullet is certainly doable - but as said in this thread ad nauseam, a person would really have to be honest with themselves about their skill level and set up. It's not for your average guy for sure.

OK you have taken this way too far. Who here has ever advocated the use of non expanding match bullets? Please point out a single post. I have been on this forum for a very long time and can not think of a single post stating that.

There are thousands of posts stating that the Sierra Match King and Berger bullets work very well. The killin'est bullet I have ever used is the .338 300gr SMK. The 30 cal 175 and 220 are also known for their ability to work just like a "hunting" bullet. I have put down countless deer with both of those bullets. I have also used the .224 69gr and 77gr SMK to hunt. Both of these bullets also open up just like a "hunting" bullet. I have used a few Berger bullets I know they work. I just do not shoot very many of them.

These bullets do offer something that traditional bullets do not. The ability to open up at distance.

I have also killed deer and coyotes with real AP bullets. At least ball will tumble. Yes I have also used ball. Granted the 7n6 is a great hunting bullet.

As to your average guy comment. You are not kidding. Heck I would go out on a limb and state the average guy could not make a 200yd shot even with a traditional "hunting" rifle.

 

[300_whisper]

Gents think we are getting too personnel here. It's safe to say the vast majority of us wouldn't use a 300 BO sub out to 200 yards. BUT with the right load, bullet type, equipment, and training it is feasible. That's a recipe for success that has been stated in this thread.

Would I do it? No, I don't have the confidence or skill to shoot at an animal knowing I'm very limited with the cartridge I'm using.

I would definitely load up a 300 BO 110-125 grainer going 2100-2300 FPS to cleanly kill a deer within 200 yards no problem.

A lot of good info in this thread. I'm ready to get my new 300 BO shooting.

 

[rebel]

OK you have taken this way too far. Who here has ever advocated the use of non expanding match bullets? Please point out a single post. I have been on this forum for a very long time and can not think of a single post stating that.

There are thousands of posts stating that the Sierra Match King and Berger bullets work very well. The killin'est bullet I have ever used is the .338 300gr SMK. The 30 cal 175 and 220 are also known for their ability to work just like a "hunting" bullet. I have put down countless deer with both of those bullets. I have also used the .224 69gr and 77gr SMK to hunt. Both of these bullets also open up just like a "hunting" bullet. I have used a few Berger bullets I know they work. I just do not shoot very many of them.

These bullets do offer something that traditional bullets do not. The ability to open up at distance.

I have also killed deer and coyotes with real AP bullets. At least ball will tumble. Yes I have also used ball. Granted the 7n6 is a great hunting bullet.

As to your average guy comment. You are not kidding. Heck I would go out on a limb and state the average guy could not make a 200yd shot even with a traditional "hunting" rifle.

I don't have a problem with anyone hunting with an SMK, which, whether it opens or not, is not "designed" to hunt with, as long is they are capable of doing so. Same goes for subs. I don't believe I've taken anything to far. I just stated you needed to have a certain level of expertise to do so. As for showing you a post, I've seen plenty that have said that , but the latest is quoted above.
Reiterating, I don't think you horrible, unethical or dumb. You have made it work and understand there is less of a margin for error. I would agree on average and the 200 yard shot. Folks don't take the time to shoot anymore, which in regard to ethics, is the worse thing anyone can do in the field - not practice.
It might sound dumb to say this here, but the amount of folks that come in the store, by a rifle and an optic, have it bore sighted and think they are ready to go is staggering.

 

[dellet]

Here comes the FNG trying to stir the pot. I've lurked this site for a long time and gleaned a ton of good info, but this thread started sideways and has just got worse as it's progressed.

I am a big proponent of the cartridge, but have no problem pointing out it's weaknesses. That's part of being honest about what it can and can't do. That way you don't have a bunch of idiots running around trying to hit deer at 200 yards shooting subs.

I have spent a little bit of time with this cartridge and some with this particular bullet. The bullet will perform as advertised 90% of the time. If it hits bone, any bigger than a rib, you're in trouble. It is not as reliable for accuracy as say an Amax, SMK or Berger. It might hold its own against a Partition. It is not that easy of a bullet to work with to have consistency at distance.

As far a lethal potential, goes, if you are comfortable shooting a deer at 10 yards with a 200 grain bullet from a 45 ACP. Or with a 500 grain arrow at 200 FPS, there is no reason that a 200 grain bullet that expands to more than 1.5" leaving 3-4 wound channels, hitting at 900 fps would not work for you.

The ability of the bullet to perform is without question.

I have to be honest, I could not make it through the whole video. It kinda pisses me off to see things like that. I got lost in the NASCAR style sponsor list after hearing that if you can hit a 9" paper plate at 200 yards, you too can hunt deer with a 300 Blackout shooting subsonic.

If you're still with me let's look at the numbers.

A 500 grain arrow at 200 fps, this would be a classic setup used for at least a few thousand years, produces less than 50 pounds of energy and leaves a wound channel about 1" wide. Take your pick of 2-3-4 blades.

A 200 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity 1000 fps will still be traveling over 900 fps at 200 yards and will have no less than 375 pounds of energy, with a a wound channel 150% wider than the arrow and will dump at least 90% of it's energy into the animal. It is not likely to exit. More lethal than an arrow.

Compare it to a 30.06 and and it has the same energy with the same 200 grain weight projectile, at somewhere around 650 -700 yards. Safe to say not near the effectiveness of a 200 grain bullet with a MV of 24-2500 fps. but what's important in the comparison is the bullet drop on target at that range and the ability to range your target.

For purpose of argument, the load is a 194 Lehigh with a MV of 1000 fps. Let's look at the drop with a 100 yard zero, my calculator, for where I live.

At 200 yards there will be a 35.2" drop. Maybe I can deal with that maybe not. But here are the variables.

How good is your range finder, and how good are you at using it? +/- 10 yards at 200?

194 Lehigh MV 1000

190 yards -29.2"
200 yards -35.2
210 yards -40.8

Remember the OP says if you can hit a 9" paper plate at 200 yards, you can be an ethical hunter with subsonic 300 Blackout. Looks like I need to brush up on my ability to read a range finder.

Since this is a custom bullet, it requires a custom load. Let's look at how good we are on the loading bench. How about an ES of 30 and an SD in the low teens. Many people would be very happy with those numbers and call them awesome.

How do they look on paper?

MV 1020 100 yard zero.

190 -28.8"
200 -33.9"
210 -39.3

MV 1010

190 -29.4"
200 -34.5"
210 -40.0"

MV 1000

190 29.2"
200 35.2"
210 40.8"

MV 990

190 30.5"
200 35.9"
210 41.6"

These numbers probably represent what an above average shooter/reloader will be capable of. With a plus or minus 10 yards on the range finder, and an ES of 30 on the load, there is a potential for a 12" vertical string.

Cut your ES to 10 and your ranging to +/- 5 yards and you still have a potential 6" vertical string. If you factor in the angle of the drop, about 1.5" per foot, you have almost maxed out your kill zone.

The last thing I will say, is that I know a lot of guys that are excellent shots, with better than average loading skills, that have trouble shooting a four inch group at 200 yards with a subsonic load in very tightly controlled conditions. There are very few people that can shoot a deer ethically and humanely at 600 yards plus using a super, those are the same guys that could shoot one at 200 subsonic.

I won't say it can't be done, because I know people who do it regularly. I will say that subs at 200 are the same challenge as supers at 600 and should be treated that way.

Sorry to start out with a rant, but numbers don't lie and people like the OP, do the cartridge and the shooting community as a whole, a dis-service posting stuff like that.

The bullet and the cartridge are capable.
There are plenty of shooters who can make the shot.
You lose probably half those because they really can't range the shot and dope the scope for a first shot kill.
You lose more than half who can not put the load together needed to make the shot.

My guess is that less than 10% of people out there can develop the load, range the shot, dope the scope, and pull the trigger for a clean first shot kill.

I am not one of them, even tho in a controlled setting I can regularly shoot sub 3" groups at 200 yards off a bipod. My ranging and doping skills will not get me within 5 yards more than 90% of the time.

If the OP had said "if you can shoot clays at random distances out to 200 yards 95% of the time" I would defend him. But being able to hit a paper plate at 200 yards under controlled conditions won't cut it in the real world.

 

[JRS]

Here comes the FNG trying to stir the pot. I've lurked this site for a long time and gleaned a ton of good info, but this thread started sideways and has just got worse as it's progressed.

I am a big proponent of the cartridge, but have no problem pointing out it's weaknesses. That's part of being honest about what it can and can't do. That way you don't have a bunch of idiots running around trying to hit deer at 200 yards shooting subs.

I have spent a little bit of time with this cartridge and some with this particular bullet. The bullet will perform as advertised 90% of the time. If it hits bone, any bigger than a rib, you're in trouble. It is not as reliable for accuracy as say an Amax, SMK or Berger. It might hold its own against a Partition. It is not that easy of a bullet to work with to have consistency at distance.

As far a lethal potential, goes, if you are comfortable shooting a deer at 10 yards with a 200 grain bullet from a 45 ACP. Or with a 500 grain arrow at 200 FPS, there is no reason that a 200 grain bullet that expands to more than 1.5" leaving 3-4 wound channels, hitting at 900 fps would not work for you.

The ability of the bullet to perform is without question.

I have to be honest, I could not make it through the whole video. It kinda pisses me off to see things like that. I got lost in the NASCAR style sponsor list after hearing that if you can hit a 9" paper plate at 200 yards, you too can hunt deer with a 300 Blackout shooting subsonic.

If you're still with me let's look at the numbers.

A 500 grain arrow at 200 fps, this would be a classic setup used for at least a few thousand years, produces less than 50 pounds of energy and leaves a wound channel about 1" wide. Take your pick of 2-3-4 blades.

A 200 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity 1000 fps will still be traveling over 900 fps at 200 yards and will have no less than 375 pounds of energy, with a a wound channel 150% wider than the arrow and will dump at least 90% of it's energy into the animal. It is not likely to exit. More lethal than an arrow.

Compare it to a 30.06 and and it has the same energy with the same 200 grain weight projectile, at somewhere around 650 -700 yards. Safe to say not near the effectiveness of a 200 grain bullet with a MV of 24-2500 fps. but what's important in the comparison is the bullet drop on target at that range and the ability to range your target.

For purpose of argument, the load is a 194 Lehigh with a MV of 1000 fps. Let's look at the drop with a 100 yard zero, my calculator, for where I live.

At 200 yards there will be a 35.2" drop. Maybe I can deal with that maybe not. But here are the variables.

How good is your range finder, and how good are you at using it? +/- 10 yards at 200?

194 Lehigh MV 1000

190 yards -29.2"
200 yards -35.2
210 yards -40.8

Remember the OP says if you can hit a 9" paper plate at 200 yards, you can be an ethical hunter with subsonic 300 Blackout. Looks like I need to brush up on my ability to read a range finder.

Since this is a custom bullet, it requires a custom load. Let's look at how good we are on the loading bench. How about an ES of 30 and an SD in the low teens. Many people would be very happy with those numbers and call them awesome.

How do they look on paper?

MV 1020 100 yard zero.

190 -28.8"
200 -33.9"
210 -39.3

MV 1010

190 -29.4"
200 -34.5"
210 -40.0"

MV 1000

190 29.2"
200 35.2"
210 40.8"

MV 990

190 30.5"
200 35.9"
210 41.6"

These numbers probably represent what an above average shooter/reloader will be capable of. With a plus or minus 10 yards on the range finder, and an ES of 30 on the load, there is a potential for a 12" vertical string.

Cut your ES to 10 and your ranging to +/- 5 yards and you still have a potential 6" vertical string. If you factor in the angle of the drop, about 1.5" per foot, you have almost maxed out your kill zone.

The last thing I will say, is that I know a lot of guys that are excellent shots, with better than average loading skills, that have trouble shooting a four inch group at 200 yards with a subsonic load in very tightly controlled conditions. There are very few people that can shoot a deer ethically and humanely at 600 yards plus using a super, those are the same guys that could shoot one at 200 subsonic.

I won't say it can't be done, because I know people who do it regularly. I will say that subs at 200 are the same challenge as supers at 600 and should be treated that way.

Sorry to start out with a rant, but numbers don't lie and people like the OP, do the cartridge and the shooting community as a whole, a dis-service posting stuff like that.

The bullet and the cartridge are capable.
There are plenty of shooters who can make the shot.
You lose probably half those because they really can't range the shot and dope the scope for a first shot kill.
You lose more than half who can not put the load together needed to make the shot.

My guess is that less than 10% of people out there can develop the load, range the shot, dope the scope, and pull the trigger for a clean first shot kill.

I am not one of them, even tho in a controlled setting I can regularly shoot sub 3" groups at 200 yards off a bipod. My ranging and doping skills will not get me within 5 yards more than 90% of the time.

If the OP had said "if you can shoot clays at random distances out to 200 yards 95% of the time" I would defend him. But being able to hit a paper plate at 200 yards under controlled conditions won't cut it in the real world.

How is that bullet more lethal than an arrow? Both cause death The arrow kills via blood/oxygen loss. Either way, it results in death.

 

[dellet]

How is that bullet more lethal than an arrow? Both cause death The arrow kills via blood/oxygen loss. Either way, it results in death.

I guess if we parse the words, the comparative lethal efficiency of the projectile dumping more energy on contact and creating a larger wound channel, allowing a faster loss of blood and life is not really more lethal, just more efficient. This advantage would go to the expanded bullet.

Since the bullet causes a faster death, this allows less time for the injured to seek medical assistance making the bullet wound more likely to be lethal.

Again that's just parsing words.

 

[JRS]

I guess if we parse the words, the comparative lethal efficiency of the projectile dumping more energy on contact and creating a larger wound channel, allowing a faster loss of blood and life is not really more lethal, just more efficient. This advantage would go to the expanded bullet.

Since the bullet causes a faster death, this allows less time for the injured to seek medical assistance making the bullet wound more likely to be lethal.

Again that's just parsing words.

Agreed

However, my arrows are actually more efficient than a rifle cartridge. Unless I break the arrow, I continue to use it over and over, by simply touching-up the broad head to keep it razor sharp. No sizing, primer, powder or bullet. No cost efficiency

Edit: Although I have to work harder while bowhunting, I don't have to worry about damaging my hearing

 

[dellet]

Agreed

However, my arrows are actually more efficient than a rifle cartridge. Unless I break the arrow, I continue to use it over and over, by simply touching-up the broad head to keep it razor sharp. No sizing, primer, powder or bullet. No cost efficiency

If your arrows are more efficient than your rifle cartridges, maybe more practice at the rifle range instead of the archery range might help close the gap.

Agreed on the cost efficiency, although I generally replace the fletching after a kill shot. Stone points tended to break regularly, so I am back to shooting more steel now. Time is harder to come by these days.

Knowing the limitations of your equipment and skill set, certainly applies to the 300 Blackout, more so with subsonic shooting. I am used to that.

No worries about hearing loss shooting subs suppressed, but it does cost a lifetime supply of arrows to get set up for it.

 

[WV Hitman]

I just saw this thread-new member. The .300 Whisper IS a 200 yards deer gun. I'm a tester for Lehigh Defense. The bullet posted with the "wings" was a early one they developed. It was no good. Did not kill deer.
The next generation was a 186 gr. segmented HP with scores on the nose to aid bullet separation. It did fair on deer, but not great.
Third generation was a 170 gr. segmented HP, scored nose, AND a .17 cal. bullet inside the .30 cal. bullet. It worked. It's the only subsonic bullet I've found that drops deer. About 95% of the deer taken with this bullet with a chest hit do not move. I
I've taken over 100 deer with subs. This bullet is #1. #2 is a 220 gr. Sierra RN. JD Jones developed the round using a 240 gr. Sierra HPBT Match. It works, but the deer stand in place (if not alerted), bleed out in 15-20 seconds, then drop.
A mildot scope is a must for the Whisper. My longest groundhog shot on a groundhog is 250 yds. with the Sierra RN. On a deer 275 yds with the Sierra Match. It stood a few seconds, walked fast, and died in 40 yards.
I've done deer out to 200 yds. with bullet #1.

 

[rcparker1]

I just saw this thread-new member. The .300 Whisper IS a 200 yards deer gun. I'm a tester for Lehigh Defense. The bullet posted with the "wings" was a early one they developed. It was no good. Did not kill deer.
The next generation was a 186 gr. segmented HP with scores on the nose to aid bullet separation. It did fair on deer, but not great.
Third generation was a 170 gr. segmented HP, scored nose, AND a .17 cal. bullet inside the .30 cal. bullet. It worked. It's the only subsonic bullet I've found that drops deer. About 95% of the deer taken with this bullet with a chest hit do not move. I
I've taken over 100 deer with subs. This bullet is #1. #2 is a 220 gr. Sierra RN. JD Jones developed the round using a 240 gr. Sierra HPBT Match. It works, but the deer stand in place (if not alerted), bleed out in 15-20 seconds, then drop.
A mildot scope is a must for the Whisper. My longest groundhog shot on a groundhog is 250 yds. with the Sierra RN. On a deer 275 yds with the Sierra Match. It stood a few seconds, walked fast, and died in 40 yards.
I've done deer out to 200 yds. with bullet #1.

My biggest problem isn't killing the deer. My problem with the gun is most people are not responding when it comes to practicing, knowing their rifle, and choosing a ethical shot. With that much drop, wind drift, and shooting through possible vegetation are all things to take into account. Even a 22lr could possibly keep a deer at 200yds if you made a once in a life perfect shot. That being said I know hunters I wouldn't let hunt my land if they were shooting a 20mm AA gun

 

[rebel]

I just saw this thread-new member. The .300 Whisper IS a 200 yards deer gun. I'm a tester for Lehigh Defense. The bullet posted with the "wings" was a early one they developed. It was no good. Did not kill deer.
The next generation was a 186 gr. segmented HP with scores on the nose to aid bullet separation. It did fair on deer, but not great.
Third generation was a 170 gr. segmented HP, scored nose, AND a .17 cal. bullet inside the .30 cal. bullet. It worked. It's the only subsonic bullet I've found that drops deer. About 95% of the deer taken with this bullet with a chest hit do not move. I
I've taken over 100 deer with subs. This bullet is #1. #2 is a 220 gr. Sierra RN. JD Jones developed the round using a 240 gr. Sierra HPBT Match. It works, but the deer stand in place (if not alerted), bleed out in 15-20 seconds, then drop.
A mildot scope is a must for the Whisper. My longest groundhog shot on a groundhog is 250 yds. with the Sierra RN. On a deer 275 yds with the Sierra Match. It stood a few seconds, walked fast, and died in 40 yards.
I've done deer out to 200 yds. with bullet #1.

Did the 194 ME expand to quick limiting penetration, savagedashers concern, or was it deflected by bone to much or both? I know what the 174 segmented are designed to do. Never played with the other.

 

[dellet]

I just saw this thread-new member. The .300 Whisper IS a 200 yards deer gun. I'm a tester for Lehigh Defense. The bullet posted with the "wings" was a early one they developed. It was no good. Did not kill deer.
The next generation was a 186 gr. segmented HP with scores on the nose to aid bullet separation. It did fair on deer, but not great.
Third generation was a 170 gr. segmented HP, scored nose, AND a .17 cal. bullet inside the .30 cal. bullet. It worked. It's the only subsonic bullet I've found that drops deer. About 95% of the deer taken with this bullet with a chest hit do not move. I
I've taken over 100 deer with subs. This bullet is #1. #2 is a 220 gr. Sierra RN. JD Jones developed the round using a 240 gr. Sierra HPBT Match. It works, but the deer stand in place (if not alerted), bleed out in 15-20 seconds, then drop.
A mildot scope is a must for the Whisper. My longest groundhog shot on a groundhog is 250 yds. with the Sierra RN. On a deer 275 yds with the Sierra Match. It stood a few seconds, walked fast, and died in 40 yards.
I've done deer out to 200 yds. with bullet #1.

I'm guessing being the new guy this was for me?

Never questioned the cartridge. As for the 194 ME, I guess I will yield to your experience that it's not good for deer at distance, seems to do the job short range.

My point is you better know your drops and distance to try a shot at a deer at 200 yards subsonic, and that if minute of paper plate is the best you can shoot, please don't try.

Lehigh has always been a huge supporter of the cartridge, sadly they bring things to market before they are adequately tested it seems. I had discussions with them about the 78 CQB coming apart in 1/7 barrels as it was hitting the market. I think it was at least two years before they started to acknowledge the problem.

If they are starting to doubt the 194 they really should pull that one also.

 

[fredo]

Just a thought the original Berger J-4 VLD's were non expanding match bullets until they put them in a box marked "Hunting VLD" You also have the 162 A-Max non expanding match bullet

LOL, exactly!

http://www.hornady.com/bullets Check out Hornady's description of the A-max.

Check out my description of the 162Amax:

Found that under the offside hide of a deer @ ~650yds.
Look how "non-expanded" it is...

 

[rebel]

LOL, exactly!



Check out my description of the 162Amax:

Found that under the offside hide of a deer @ ~650yds.
Look how "non-expanded" it is...

Y'all didn't check the link, Hornady says "Rapid Expansion" right there on their web sight. I was agreeing with the man. I need to learn to be more clear

This is from there site, to me it's a bit counter -intuitive. I did not see "not recommended for hunting" I'll admit - just rapid expansion. My bad for not reading the small print.
A-MAX®
Designed by match shooters for match shooters. With an ultra-low drag tip, our A-Max match bullets feature an aerodynamic secant ogive that delivers flat trajectories with excellent uniformity and concentricity. Find out more...

• Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration.
• Recommended muzzle velocity range: 2000+ fps.
• These bullets are not recommended for hunting.
  edited for clarity

 

[savagedasher]

Why would someone not think they would kill at 200 yards .
The real question is how many will not be killed . Bullet placement then becomes the answer .
Deer shooting I feel must be done with a high success rate .
300 black out at 200 yards is not the gun .
Especially if sub sonic .
Best Comparison is like shoot as deer at 150 yards with Number 1 buck shot. Or useing a field point when archery hunting at 100 yards
A few archers wold have success but very few . Bullet placement is the problem . Larry

 

[wildfowler]

Edit: I see y'all beat me to this so please disregard the message below.

LOL, exactly!



Check out my description of the 162Amax:

Found that under the offside hide of a deer @ ~650yds.
Look how "non-expanded" it is...

That's weird? What I read from the link above regarding the Amax bullet is that it said rapid expansion, with limited penetration? I must have missed the nine expanding part? I'm wondering if that's a typo?