INSIDE NECK SCRATCHES - EFFECT

[boltfluter]

If inside neck turning or boring, such as with the IDOD, were of any value you can bet all of the serious benchrest shooters would be all over this!! They are not! If you are galling necks when turning the od something is wrong. Period. To tight of a mandrel, wrong lube, over heating mandrel...... This is not rocket science and is easily overcome. This entire forum is at your disposal. Throwing money at a problem is not always the correct solution. At least in my opinion.
Paul

 

[quest450]

I shoot 600 and 1K, The AutoDOD is a very good tool, if set up properly it's very accurate, I fireform my brass in no turn neck chamber before turning and I get less than 0.0005" runout, the neck wall thickness varies about 0.0003" so IF consistency and uniform neck tension is important to you and you think it makes difference on the paper it is the right tool for you, not every serious benchrest shooter is willing or able to spend 3K on a tool that is not gonna make him a 0.25 MOA shooter, if your reloading process, bench manners and you equipment are not 100% perfect plus being able to shoot the difference then I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a tool, I'd get three new barrels and a set of wind flags instead.

 

[J_idaho]

So if scratches on bullet decrease accuracy. What does rifling’s do?

 

[jimmymac]

I have no idea if galling the inside of the necks causes accuracy issues. I base all my processes on keeping things simple and trying not to induce potential gremlins. I’ll never know if galled necks cause problems because I’ll never gall my necks. I won’t put them through any process where there is a chance of it happening. Someone else can test this.

Time is of the essence to me when reloading. I don’t do this for a hobby. I do it to make the best match ammo I can with as few processes as possible. Shooting is a hobby. I just happen to have to reload to do it.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The id surface does matter to a point. In my testing I have found that too slick or too sticky is bad. Some lubes are too slick and a clean dry polished surface is sticky. Both have not shot well for me in many cases. The idod should not be leaving scratches. Like any machine op speeds and feeds should be adjusted to produce a nice finish. While you dont need an idod, it sure is not hurting anyone if your using it properly. I do think the way Mark is using it is the best route, fire forming in a no turn chamber first.

Theres a lot of rabbit holes to go down, but the #1 thing that holds most guys back doesnt cost anything. Its your tune. Thats 90% of the game.

 

[JSH]

Yes - I can vaguely recall the old days when I never even though of things like this.....

That gave me a big grin bud.
There have been times I never knew I had a problem until someone told me I did. And all along my worst group was better than his best.
Must be this new technology lol.

 

[AlNyhus]

The id surface does matter to a point. In my testing I have found that too slick or too sticky is bad. Some lubes are too slick and a clean dry polished surface is sticky. Both have not shot well for me in many cases.

Handloaders that obsess over having surgically clean cases inside and out should pay attention to this.

 

[avidflyer]

I’ve far more 17x, and 18x 199 and 200’s at 600 since I’ve started using the Henderson vs before using it…8-12x 197-200’s scores before using it…

what were you using before?

 

[Lucky6547]

what were you using before?

Wilson trimmer, K&M 6mm-338 controlled depth tapered reamer for inside chamfer, and a regular rocket chamfer tool on the outside. Was taking me an hour to do 28 cases, now with the Henderson I get those same 28 cases done in under two minutes! The time savings alone were worth the price, and the higher scores didn’t hurt.

 

[searcher]

If inside neck turning or boring, such as with the IDOD, were of any value you can bet all of the serious benchrest shooters would be all over this!! They are not! If you are galling necks when turning the od something is wrong. Period. To tight of a mandrel, wrong lube, over heating mandrel...... This is not rocket science and is easily overcome. This entire forum is at your disposal. Throwing money at a problem is not always the correct solution. At least in my opinion.
Paul

I see what you are saying. I know that the inside turning makes for better seating uniformity. That is a definite plus. But then, there are the induced "scratches" from turning. My question isn't about galling or the other problems others have presented - but whether the benefit of truing the necks overcomes the effects of turning-induced scratches - or whether those scratches matter on paper when they are uniform as the IDOD does them. It isn't like there are a few scratches on one side or deep gouger - they are very uniformly cut. I can tell you one reason folks aren't all over the IDOD - and that is cost. But as soon as another world record falls with a guy using one - one can bet there will be a lot in use - whether the IDOD was responsible or not. Just trying to analyze this a bit and get some feedback.

 

[searcher]

I shoot 600 and 1K, The AutoDOD is a very good tool, if set up properly it's very accurate, I fireform my brass in no turn neck chamber before turning and I get less than 0.0005" runout, the neck wall thickness varies about 0.0003" so IF consistency and uniform neck tension is important to you and you think it makes difference on the paper it is the right tool for you, not every serious benchrest shooter is willing or able to spend 3K on a tool that is not gonna make him a 0.25 MOA shooter, if your reloading process, bench manners and you equipment are not 100% perfect plus being able to shoot the difference then I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a tool, I'd get three new barrels and a set of wind flags instead.

Yeah - After the number of barrels I've been through over the last 40 years- a few more will never hurt when it comes to getting better at my game. I didn't mention my intended use of the brass I was thinking of using on the IDOD. While I will give it a try in my PPC's, 6BR & dasher, I was actually more interested in using it for processing high-volume varmint brass. These days, I take my varmint shooting far more serious than targets, as I only compete against myself these days in that respect. I sometimes take several thousand rounds on a single shoot. I want to use the IDOD on less expensive brass to make it a better product. I found that buying a few thousand rounds of Lapua doesn't work out too well, as the barrel is toast before I even have five firings on the brass. I like to keep a particular batch of brass with the same barrel - and I have a number of barrels I shoot from. I've found turning the necks vastly improves most "non-Lapua" brass much more than Lapua. I also do a lot of necking down for certain guns and I know I'm only getting 1/2 to 2/3 of the unevenness out of the necks when outside turning. Hoping the IDOD can step it up a small notch.

 

[searcher]

I have heard some people saying they get scratches and galling on the Henderson trimmer and the giruard is superior. First off if you are galling or scraping necks with the Henderson it is user error. The OP asked if scratches or galling affects accuracy , IDK if the machine marks( I wouldn't call them scratches) that the IDOD leave in the case necks affect accuracy but if you watch a video done by F-Class John running the Henderson Trimmer along side his personal Giruard trimmer its very interesting, he then took the cases and seated bullets in them on the AMP press and the results were very interesting. The cases trimmed on the Giruard had a massive spike at the beginning and was somewhat rough and inconsistent while the cases trimmed on the Henderson were more consistent and a more even pressure throughout the seating cycle and did not have the big spike at the beginning. He then took the cartridges and shot them, the cartridges trimmed on the Henderson had smaller and more uniform groups than the groups shot with the Giruard trimmed brass. Also the SD's and ES'S with the Henderson trimmed casings were about half that of the Giruard cases across the board. I am not saying he is the authority on this but it seemed like a non biased comparison of the two units and some results on target that were derived from it. Its it a long and extensive study... no but it is still some valuable data in my book, not just hearsay on the internet. Here is the video, the seating test is about at the halfway mark.

I have noticed a slight difference in seating. I haven't put enough rounds on paper with my accurate rifles to really make an opinion on SDs and accuracy - but this is interesting to hear. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[209jones]

I'm more inclined to think some marking of the interior surface by a pilot is really not going to make any visible or detectable difference to the bullet. I'd suspect uneven neck thickness could make more resistance to expansion pressure or opening rate, vs bullet movement as some folk seem to be worried about, and the barrel will definitely impart more than enough of its own influence on the surface, and even the interior of the bullet, that it makes it a moot point.

 

[boltfluter]

Interesting topic guys. Nice to see the different takes on this procedure and machine. I believe, no matter what you do to the necks, the most important part is the layer of carbon left from previous shots must be maintained to some degree. In this case, squeaky clean is not the answer, at least in my experience.
Paul

 

[AlNyhus]

On my .30's, I've done a lot of inner neck work. This started when I was shooting a .165 short 308W on Lapua cases in Hunter class Benchrest. The best solution I found was to cut the inner necks to make them round and remove the funnel shape before neck turning the outside. Elzie Scott from Wilson Tool and Die made me a series of reamers from .3060 to .3090 in .0005 increments. I made a flanged pilot bushing for them and used them in the standard Wilson case trimmer....very gently and by hand.

It took a bit of work to come up with a finish that would let the carbon stay on the inner necks and not come off when I ran a nylon brush in there after firing.

There was a definite accuracy improvement as the gun was more responsive to neck tension changes. I was the test mule for this. I was making cases for two other competitors with the same chambering and then did new cases for both of them. Both picked up accuracy and the scores reflected this.

The 30BRs don't need quite this level of work....though I've done it from time to time with no detrimental effects, either. The rounder and straighter the (inner) necks are before you start...the better.

I still 'condition' the inner necks on the 30BR cases before firing them the first time. I feel it helps. But like Tim Wilson says, I could be wrong.

 

[6BRA]

I have heard some people saying they get scratches and galling on the Henderson trimmer and the giruard is superior. First off if you are galling or scraping necks with the Henderson it is user error. The OP asked if scratches or galling affects accuracy , IDK if the machine marks( I wouldn't call them scratches) that the IDOD leave in the case necks affect accuracy but if you watch a video done by F-Class John running the Henderson Trimmer along side his personal Giruard trimmer its very interesting, he then took the cases and seated bullets in them on the AMP press and the results were very interesting. The cases trimmed on the Giruard had a massive spike at the beginning and was somewhat rough and inconsistent while the cases trimmed on the Henderson were more consistent and a more even pressure throughout the seating cycle and did not have the big spike at the beginning. He then took the cartridges and shot them, the cartridges trimmed on the Henderson had smaller and more uniform groups than the groups shot with the Giruard trimmed brass. Also the SD's and ES'S with the Henderson trimmed casings were about half that of the Giruard cases across the board. I am not saying he is the authority on this but it seemed like a non biased comparison of the two units and some results on target that were derived from it. Its it a long and extensive study... no but it is still some valuable data in my book, not just hearsay on the internet. Here is the video, the seating test is about at the halfway mark.

If I could only trim to .0015 I wouldn't bother. Which is why I haven't. Wilson gives me .0005 all day long.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

That gave me a big grin bud.
There have been times I never knew I had a problem until someone told me I did. And all along my worst group was better than his best.
Must be this new technology lol.

There’s not a shortage of “solutions to problems that don’t exist” on here.

Emotional decisions instead of practical. Like women. They don’t care how functional it is, but how’s it look or make them feel.

Sometimes the estrogen levels spike on here. Henderson trimmers are great. Quit being a girl.

 

[searcher]

So if scratches on bullet decrease accuracy. What does rifling’s do?

Good point. I personally believe that most real damage to a bullet will most likely occur during seating, if the heel of a flat-based bullet is nicked or otherwise damaged by rough brass., so I really doubt the IDOD would cause problems in that respect - but was interested to see what others had to say who have experience with it.

I tend to think that if a bullet had a big scratch down one side of the bullet, for example, as long as the scratch is contained to the area in the case, about half of it will get "ironed out" when firing - maybe all, depending on the orientation of the bullet when entering the lands and how wide the scratch. Some bullets when fired might still have a portion of the scratch exposed to "disrupt" the bullet - and some not. Of course, if the heel was damaged, they will be all over the place. I'd think this would be a much bigger deal to someone shooting extreme distances - but I guess it depends on the severity of the scratch. I Think the fine, circular cuts left by the IDOD would be relatively uniform from neck to neck, so the effect "should" be relatively the same from bullet to bullet. I do tend to believe that rifling is a friend to many a bad bullet.

 

[searcher]

Emotional decisions instead of practical. Like women. They don’t care how functional it is, but how’s it look or make them feel.

Sometimes the estrogen levels spike on here. Henderson trimmers are great. Quit being a girl.

And most of those darned women don't appreciate a macho man like you. Imagine that.....
You and I can never run for President - not me, because the public is not ready for the "rough" language I'd have to say to our politicians to grow up and act and spend like (responsible) adults. It would be like an "old school" day at the principal's office.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I see what you are saying. I know that the inside turning makes for better seating uniformity. That is a definite plus. But then, there are the induced "scratches" from turning. My question isn't about galling or the other problems others have presented - but whether the benefit of truing the necks overcomes the effects of turning-induced scratches - or whether those scratches matter on paper when they are uniform as the IDOD does them. It isn't like there are a few scratches on one side or deep gouger - they are very uniformly cut. I can tell you one reason folks aren't all over the IDOD - and that is cost. But as soon as another world record falls with a guy using one - one can bet there will be a lot in use - whether the IDOD was responsible or not. Just trying to analyze this a bit and get some feedback.

guess what erik cortina uses on his brass