Induction brass annealer redux

[Gina1]

May be just another drop-ship outfit with a pretty website and not an actual warehouse full of parts on hand ready to ship.

I guess the give away, is "ships in 2-3 business days" Still you finding was remarkable. I though because of the design of this solenoid, it had been a specialty manufacture (connector end, short cable) for some sort of electronic device, that never took off and was surplus buy by Jameco.

Gina

 

[Stan1]

Stan1... Looks good. Any chance we could see a picture of your feed funnel ?

This is all pretty simple but here goes...

Here's a top view with a 300 BLK. You can see the funnel is cut to about 1/2 the height of the coil to keep the Nylon as far from the hot case mouth as possible and still function smoothly. The Nylon does not contact the coil.

BTW you can see the thermistors tie-wrapped to the coil to read the in- & output temps.

The shelf has a 3/4" hole and the funnel has a stub to fit with a light press fit. This allows different funnels for different cases to be changed easily.

This shows the Uxcell JF0730B solenoid installed. It's really simple being a square chassis with pre-tapped mounting holes. Also you can see the adjustable shelf. I milled some bar stock to fit a modified shelf bracket. An Allen screw adjusts the height. It's not sexy but surprisingly sturdy.

I have a thermal video of the coil heating and cooling if anyone wants to see it. Watching the heat flow across the cold radiator as the unit cycles is interesting too

 

[Gina1]

Very nice, Stan. Explains why your delay time was only 1.75 seconds. Not having a lath, myself, you have given me an idea to try it with off the shelf funnels and just trim to output hole, with the funnel resting on the coil (which never really gets too hot) May speed thing up. The most cases I anneal, is right after a match, usually a 100. I find it sort of relaxing.
Sure... if you want to post the video, I would find it interesting. Maybe some of the other builders would also.
Again, thanks for sharing.

Gina

 

[GrocMax]

Case funnel would come in super handy for those working off the delay time in continuous loop mode and not a case operated start switch in one shot mode.

 

[Stan1]

Not having a lath, myself, you have given me an idea to try it with off the shelf funnels and just trim to output hole, with the funnel resting on the coil (which never really gets too hot)

Gina1, hollywood, GrocMax, FishingDog, etc., in the spirit of paying for the great info in this thread (which I probably read about 12-15 times making notes before starting), if you don't have a lathe, shoot me some dimensions and a drawing and I'll make you a funnel like mine. I guess I got lucky on the angles and such as the case falls in nicely and settles very quickly.

Caveat, I have some 1" OD Nylon on hand, so if you want one like mine that's no problem. I thought about making one that sat on the coil like you said but then it's really tall plus I don't have the material on hand. I have enough material to make 4-5 pieces. First come...

-----

Here is an IR view of the coil doing a 300 BLK, and then two cycles w/o a case. You can see me drop in the case and how quickly the case heats. I'd take the temp values displayed with many grains of salt. The last two cycles show the coil heating up and how fast the water cools it down. The "clunks" are what you'd expect. The first is the relay starting the anneal, then the relay releasing and the solenoid dropping the case basically simultaneously. Lather, rinse, repeat w/o a case.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0hzq1ucvksrysly/Case Annealer Small.m4v?dl=0

Let's see if this dropbox link works. ~2MB.

 

[Gina1]

Stan.... Thanks, Really is neat to see the coil heat up and cool down. Had to sell my first born to go through Drop Box. Lucky I have a few other e-mail accounts to give them the information.
Thank you for the offer of a funnel. I can see your doing hundreds of cases and that funnel must really help. ME... lucky if I do a hundred. No real reason to speed it up. So thank you, but no thank you.
As far as the relay closing and opening, + the drop solenoid, I kind of find I like the noise. As I said I find it sort of relaxing to do the annealing after a day at the range. So it is time well spent.
I'm glad everything worked out for you... Enjoy

Gina

 

[GrocMax]

Thanks, but not needed. Got lathe and already made mine in 3 sizes, .378", .473" and belted mag in a similar fashion from 7/8" OD teflon.

 

[GrocMax]

Here's a spreadsheet to calculate current limit switch resistors for your desired current levels for the RSP-750-48 PS.

EDIT- added some cell comments so things are clearer, where to put resistors etc.

 

[bigfish28]

Here's a spreadsheet to calculate current limit switch resistors for your desired current levels for the RSP-750-48 PS.

EDIT- added some cell comments so things are clearer, where to put resistors etc.

Looks good. Resistor values are quite a bit different than what I implemented.
Thank You

 

[GrocMax]

Keep in mind if you change the value of any one resistor in the chain except the last one, you change the total resistance for every other switch position, so you need to play with values in each position to get where you want to be.

Your results on the machine won't be exact but it will be pretty close, within 0.1A-0.3A.

 

[agoodandy]

The ZVS induction circuit which operates at 100 kHz generates eddie currents which seeks a path of least resistance which is why the brass or any conductive metal gets hot. That's because there is resistance, no conductor offers perfect zero resistance. The ZVS 1000 is poorly and cheaply made. No thermal compound applied to SCR's metalized plastic resistors, not wire wound, plastic melts at lower temps and can not handle current well which is why they are limited to 1/4 watt and less. Look at the reviews and you'll see that customers have many returns. The first unit of mine the zenior diodes lasted about 30 minutes. One unit now for parts. The second one, the capacitors swelled which shorted them out, which over drove the cheaply made SCR's which further damaged the capacitors which cost me a second unit. I can't as an electronic engineer advise using those cheaply made Chinese units. I found a better until this week a SainSmart 1000 watt at 50 amps. I suspect the other units may be good for 20 to 25 amps an then poof it's time to buy another. I can't fully vouch for the new induction heater, I have to run tests on it. Secondly the timer circuit is a one shot ordeal, requiring constant button pushing to anneal your brass. I get enough button pushing from my wife.
I plan on using an Adrino board and write the code to allow for the brass to be fed into the coil automatically. That will just take time, I'm not the best at coding. I will keep updating this thread so your unit may operate better and longer. I will also as this woman did, list the parts. My unit must be reliable for years and be repairable using sub assemblies.

 

[Gina1]

The ZVS induction circuit which operates at 100 kHz generates eddie currents which seeks a path of least resistance which is why the brass or any conductive metal gets hot. That's because there is resistance, no conductor offers perfect zero resistance. The ZVS 1000 is poorly and cheaply made. No thermal compound applied to SCR's metalized plastic resistors, not wire wound, plastic melts at lower temps and can not handle current well which is why they are limited to 1/4 watt and less. Look at the reviews and you'll see that customers have many returns. The first unit of mine the zenior diodes lasted about 30 minutes. One unit now for parts. The second one, the capacitors swelled which shorted them out, which over drove the cheaply made SCR's which further damaged the capacitors which cost me a second unit. I can't as an electronic engineer advise using those cheaply made Chinese units. I found a better until this week a SainSmart 1000 watt at 50 amps. I suspect the other units may be good for 20 to 25 amps an then poof it's time to buy another. I can't fully vouch for the new induction heater, I have to run tests on it. Secondly the timer circuit is a one shot ordeal, requiring constant button pushing to anneal your brass. I get enough button pushing from my wife.
I plan on using an Adrino board and write the code to allow for the brass to be fed into the coil automatically. That will just take time, I'm not the best at coding. I will keep updating this thread so your unit may operate better and longer. I will also as this woman did, list the parts. My unit must be reliable for years and be repairable using sub assemblies.

Andy...

Thank you for your input, but I think you should have read/watched this thread from the beginning. You seemed to have missed a few important things.

First, the ZVS induction PCB you called out to use is the exact same one called out in the original parts list. DUH ! I don't know where you got yours. Additionally, the amount of current the GinaErick pulls is about 15 amps max (depending on the power supply). So it is not running up against the max current heat wall, and lasts and last and lasts.

Second, IF you watched the youtube video, linked in this thread, you would see that the timer has an auto-cycle, and you only have to push the start button once, to do continuous annealing.

Third, any number of GinaErick units have been built world wide. 1,000's of cases annealed. The timer has proven it's self with no failures, and is highly reliable. All this can be built without knowing how to "code"

Gina

 

[GrocMax]

What we've got here is...... failure to communicate.

 

[Hollywood]

Andy...

Thank you for your input, but I think you should have read/watched this thread from the beginning. You seemed to have missed a few important things.

First, the ZVS induction PCB you called out to use is the exact same one called out in the original parts list. DUH ! I don't know where you got yours. Additionally, the amount of current the GinaErick pulls is about 15 amps max (depending on the power supply). So it not running up against the max current heat wall, and lasts and last and lasts.

Second, IF you watched the youtube video, linked in this thread, you would see that the timer has an auto-cycle, and you only have to push the start button once, to do continuous annealing.

Third, any number of GinaErick units have been built world wide. 1,000's of cases annealed. The timer has proven it's self with no failures, and is highly reliable. All this can be built without knowing how to "code"

Gina

 

[50bmg1979]

As Martin Lawrence would say "Damn Gina" lol.

 

[targetshooter2]

Here is the link to the 50A ZVS 1000W unit I believe Andy was referring to: https://www.sainsmart.com/sainsmart...ting-machine-product-voltage-12v-40v-36v.html
It is considerably "beefed up" compared to the 20A ZVS 1000W. It uses 8 capacitors and 4 fets feeding the output. It has both 12V and 24V DC on board voltage regulators for accessory power. It does not come with a work coil so one would need to be wound.

My observations: I have annealers setup with each of the induction heaters, 20A and 50A, and each will anneal cases. My 50A unit will anneal a 308 case in 2.7 secs using about 1/2 the watt seconds of applied power compared to the 20A version. The 50A annealer is setup @ 32V input, 9 turn - 3/4 ID - double layer work coil drawing 19A for the 308 case. Less amps for a 223 or 22-250. Measuring with a laser heat gun, the short on time of the 50A unit keeps the thermal rise of internal components and coil to a minimum. I have annealed about 4000 cases, mostly 223 on the 20A and larger cases on the 50A. I will be concentrating my automation efforts on the 50A unit.

 

[Vitold-23]

Here is the link to the 50A ZVS 1000W unit I believe Andy was referring to: https://www.sainsmart.com/sainsmart...ting-machine-product-voltage-12v-40v-36v.html
It is considerably "beefed up" compared to the 20A ZVS 1000W. It uses 8 capacitors and 4 fets feeding the output. It has both 12V and 24V DC on board voltage regulators for accessory power. It does not come with a work coil so one would need to be wound.

My observations: I have annealers setup with each of the induction heaters, 20A and 50A, and each will anneal cases. My 50A unit will anneal a 308 case in 2.7 secs using about 1/2 the watt seconds of applied power compared to the 20A version. The 50A annealer is setup @ 32V input, 9 turn - 3/4 ID - double layer work coil drawing 19A for the 308 case. Less amps for a 223 or 22-250. Measuring with a laser heat gun, the short on time of the 50A unit keeps the thermal rise of internal components and coil to a minimum. I have annealed about 4000 cases, mostly 223 on the 20A and larger cases on the 50A. I will be concentrating my automation efforts on the 50A unit.

Which power supply do you use?

 

[Gina1]

Good question.

 

[targetshooter2]

In response to the power supply question, the 20A induction heater is supplied by a 24V - 480W switching supply turned up to 27V, to decrease annealing time. If I were to refine the 20A annealing unit, I would use a 600W or 720W supply to give a better safety margin to the amp draw. The 50A induction board is powered by a 36V - 1000W switching supply turned down to 32V, to increase the annealing time. Both power supplies have variable speed fans for cooling and were sourced on eBay. I varied the coil design, # of turns and ID, to see the effect on annealing time and amp draw. I have no facts to verify my time goal of under 1.5 sec for 223 and 3.0 secs for 308 but that was a goal I set. One coil I have will do a 223 case in 0.9 secs which I believe is to fast. A 0.1 sec time change makes a big difference at that power level. I have found that shorter annealing times means much less heat transfer toward the case base and a more distinct annealing line on the case ... good or bad?? ... only multiple firings will tell.

 

[GrocMax]

If you have current limiting capabilities, experimentation with coils is easy, you don't have to worry about blowing anything up. Otherwise coil size/shape is dictated by the induction board itself, the capabilities of the PS, the workpiece, and the desired heat input.

The 1000w 20A induction board unit is not lab quality parts by any means, it also isn't so horrible as to be useless. Stay within its capabilities you're OK. Glue a bunch of heatsinks on the bottom and supply adequate (50CFM) airflow it stays cool even at a constant 15A draw for many many minutes of time.

The 20A board is capable of short times well below 2 sec. on 223 with the RSP-750-48 PS at 100% current (15.7A).