In search of new precision reloading press

[flintcreek6412]

There are a hundred ways to skin a cat and you'll likely get 100 different answers. IMO the press is a very small part of it but it does matter a little. I had a LnL and it just felt sloppy. Went to a Redding T7 and it is rock solid. Also have a Big Boss that's also solid. You don't need to spend big $ to get decent results. I've heard great things about the Co-ax but a good scale, AMP and Giraud trimmer were where I put my money.

I only prep brass on them. Full length with honed die, expand neck and done. I do believe the expander should be allowed to float a little.
I bullet seat with Wilson die and arbor press.

Don't take this wrong but 941/1000 seems to me to be more of a wind reading, gun set up, load development issue than press issue. Unless it was a brutal wind condition of course. And if you are wanting to put all this time and money in to being competitive why those cartridges and not the 7mm/.284s that I'm sure those champion shooters are using? Where are your misses? Vertical or wind?

But back to topic at hand....The Redding presses have worked just fine for me and a few small club wins.

 

[Mulligan]

Thanks. It’s not as much about the time as it is ease of adjustment. Good to know there is a solution for a press of that design because fiddling with lock rings is not of great interest to me.

I use the Whidden adjustable lock rings on my dies in the Co-Ax press, together they are AWESOME!
CW

 

[INTJ]

I have used many presses over the years. About a year ago I upgraded from a CoAx to a Prazipress and I'll never go back. I have much less rework to do when sizing, and the Prazi is extremely smooth.

We have a bunch of Area 419 Zero Presses in shop, and they are good too.

 

[RegionRat]

Sorry those were in reference to my poor performing LnL scale. While targeting a 33gr charge weight, I can put the same exact pan on and off the scale and get anywhere from 32.8-33.1

Gotcha. Then I would have to agree that you will find an improvement once you get your charges narrowed down.

Getting into the tuning node gives you more margin during the temp changes of a match as the relays pass.
The group stats at distance will improve with better velocity stats when you can shrink your charge weight spread.

I'm not sure why those other parts about cam-over or hard stops have anything to do with your scores, but no worries.

After all, you have probably watched some BR matches where tiny groups and aggs were posted by folks using all manner of presses. Using the correct set-up on your dies and prep process, regardless of the style of press, will get you where you are going. Good Luck!

 

[Retired Grunt]

Arbor press for seating? Or sizing?? I know my ES and SD will get better once the new scale is in place, the hornady L-n-L scale I use now is horrible. I feel it’s +/-0.1 to 0.13 on its best day which is horrible.

I FL Size on a Single Stage with a Bushing Die, Seat on the Arbor press with a Wilson Seater Die.

 

[walker2713]

I FL Size on a Single Stage with a Bushing Die, Seat on the Arbor press with a Wilson Seater Die.

Ditto

 

[dcali]

Lots of guys swear by the arbor type (Wilson, and others) seaters, and I use them. But I haven't found htat they're any more consistent than a threaded seater, and in some cases they're harder to use and can introduce a little variation if you're not careful. At the range, I prefer a threaded seater, as the conditions are often awkward for reloading.

 

[FNSafari]

Hi all,
As the title says, I’m in the market for a new single stage press in order to make a step towards producing the most accurate ammo possible. Currently, I’m reloading for 6 Dasher, 6.5CM and .308 in my competition rifles. We are shooting F-Open class 600 and 1000 yards (scored 941/1000 in my last 1000 yard competition). Now I’m full length sizing using Whidden gunworks bushing dies, running a 21st century mandrel die to control neck tension and seating with the Whidden competition micrometer die. I’m still using the very first I started reloading on 12+ years ago, it’s a Hornady L-n-L Classic (cam over design). I’ve been told by several very experienced champion shooters and seasoned reloaders, that the cam-over design of my current press isn’t likely helping me to produce the most consistent ammo, round to round. I’m looking for suggestions on what I should be considering for a new presses and why.
Your advice, guidance and experience will be very much appreciated. I’m NOT interested in increasing throughput or any progressive presses. I AM interested solely in what press will give me the best chance to produce rock solid repeatability from round to round.

thanks for your time and thoughtful responses,
Dave M.

Well IMO any quality press will do...RCBS, Lyman, Redding, Bonanza, etc. The key is in your dies.

 

[59FLH]

Most of my brass is has a TIR of 0.0005” on the neck and shoulder after shooting, but it varies from dead nuts perfect to as much as 5 thou TIR after sizing.

What tools and method do you use for sizing?

 

[Pvt.Donut]

I have used many presses over the years. About a year ago I upgraded from a CoAx to a Prazipress and I'll never go back. I have much less rework to do when sizing, and the Prazi is extremely smooth.

We have a bunch of Area 419 Zero Presses in shop, and they are good too.

I'm surprised I had to get to page 3 before I saw a mention of the Area 419 Zero.

 

[DiffEQ]

That doesn’t work for my application. I need to make small adjustments on a regular basis. Trying to move a die .001 with a lock ring is a waste of my time.

I agree, trying to move 1mil using a lock ring is a total PITA and waste of time. If you can figure out a way to rotate something 5° accurately on a coarse scale, I'd love to learn.

The Co-Ax has a floating die mount that you slide the die into. There's a set screw to hold the die in place, and I never touch that - mine is backed out to not interfere.
The cartridge base jaws clamp onto the rim and with a wedge action, push it down to the ram base. There is never any dimensional variation in the base datum line that you might find using a RCBS vs Redding shell holder.
When you move the ram up, it pushes the casing into the die, which rides up to the top of top of the die holder and aligns the two in the same motion.
If you need to shim, McMaster has shim washer sets, 7/8" ID that you can use that take almost zero time to insert.
Slide the die out, drop the shim of your desired bump value ON TOP of the die, slide the assembly back into the die holder. Et viola!

Edit to add: Gotta say, the Whidden click-adjustable lock ring for the Co-Ax looks neat-O !

2nd add: Using the method above, I've never measured more than +/- 0.002 TIR on finished rounds (i.e. total needle movement of 0.004 mil) at the tip (even less at the ogive). Learned, you can see this if you just roll the loaded round on a machinists shop stone, which I'm lucky enough to have two. I have had to rework some rounds, and have had to toss some brass too for being wonky.

 

[dcali]

If you use two wrenches, one on the lock ring, and one on the die, It's really not that hard to make small adjustments. leave the ring pretty tight, so that you can't turn it by hand, but loose enough that you can turn it with a wrench. The trick is to leave everything in the press and almost locked down. Then snug it up once it's set.

 

[wkdickinson]

I agree, trying to move 1mil using a lock ring is a total PITA and waste of time. If you can figure out a way to rotate something 5° accurately on a coarse scale, I'd love to learn.

The Co-Ax has a floating die mount that you slide the die into. There's a set screw to hold the die in place, and I never touch that - mine is backed out to not interfere.
The cartridge base jaws clamp onto the rim and with a wedge action, push it down to the ram base. There is never any dimensional variation in the base datum line that you might find using a RCBS vs Redding shell holder.
When you move the ram up, it pushes the casing into the die, which rides up to the top of top of the die holder and aligns the two in the same motion.
If you need to shim, McMaster has shim washer sets, 7/8" ID that you can use that take almost zero time to insert.
Slide the die out, drop the shim of your desired bump value ON TOP of the die, slide the assembly back into the die holder. Et viola!

Edit to add: Gotta say, the Whidden click-adjustable lock ring for the Co-Ax looks neat-O !

2nd add: Using the method above, I've never measured more than +/- 0.002 TIR on finished rounds (i.e. total needle movement of 0.004 mil) at the tip (even less at the ogive). Learned, you can see this if you just roll the loaded round on a machinists shop stone, which I'm lucky enough to have two. I have had to rework some rounds, and have had to toss some brass too for being wonky.

I have two Whidden "Click Adjustable" sizing dies and I find it very easy to make small adjustments with them. I use them with a COAX press, so once they are adjusted to the shoulder bump you want, they never need to be adjusted again.

 

[Fast14riot]

Nothing wrong with the Hornady press, I use it exclusively. But, have you inspected your die bushings and press insert for wear?

 

[jimmymac]

I have two Whidden "Click Adjustable" sizing dies and I find it very easy to make small adjustments with them. I use them with a COAX press, so once they are adjusted to the shoulder bump you want, they never need to be adjusted again.

Small die adjustments are the norm and not the exception for me with my comp guns. It's not required every time, but for what I do there is a distinct difference in say 3x brass and 10x brass. The 3x brass will yield much easier than the 10x brass.

If I have the die set up to give me my desired shoulder bump with the 3X brass and never make a die adjustment, the 10x sized brass will not chamber properly because it resisted sizing and the shoulder didn't move enough. Conversely, if I have the die set up for my 10x brass to achieve proper shoulder bump, I'd be over sizing my 3X brass.

The obviously leads to an annealing discussion that's best mulled over in a different discussion. Simple die control is a must for me via the PMA die adjuster, shims or as pointed out a Whidden click adjust lock ring. I couldn't get along any other way.

 

[Mulligan]

Small die adjustments are the norm and not the exception for me with my comp guns. It's not required every time, but for what I do there is a distinct difference in say 3x brass and 10x brass. The 3x brass will yield much easier than the 10x brass.

If I have the die set up to give me my desired shoulder bump with the 3X brass and never make a die adjustment, the 10x sized brass will not chamber properly because it resisted sizing and the shoulder didn't move enough. Conversely, if I have the die set up for my 10x brass to achieve proper shoulder bump, I'd be over sizing my 3X brass.

The obviously leads to an annealing discussion that's best mulled over in a different discussion. Simple die control is a must for me via the PMA die adjuster, shims or as pointed out a Whidden click adjust lock ring. I couldn't get along any other way.

@jimmymac
John Whidden makes an adjustable lock ring just for the CO-AX press that will fit most dies.
I agree with you, adjusting the resizing die (or at least verifying it is correct) is a mandatory step in my normal loading process.
CW

 

[jimmymac]

I’ve learned some things on this thread about the Coax press. Appreciate the input.

FWIW, a high dollar press isn’t required for precision reloading. A good set of custom or semi custom sizing dies and a custom seater are more important IMO, but to each their own in regards to tool expenditures. In the end, we have to satisfy ourselves.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Guys,

Bob nailed this at the top of this page. He shot a 941 out of 1000 and wants to improve. A press and/or dies are not going to meaningfully alter that score. Maybe if it were a 996 and he was looking to squeeze every 'gnats ass' gain on the bench it would be worth it, but even then, you're probably not going to shoot the difference.

Assuming the OP wasn't shooting in a hurricane, dropping ~60 points in 100 round match would indicate you've got something else (fundamentally) wrong. If you're 500% sure it's not all attributable to wind reading, I'd be looking at the rest/bag setup, the load itself, the scope, or I'd remove all doubt and spend the money on a new tube.

I know guys who have won national championships using off the shelf redding dies and "regular" presses. One thing is for sure, runout from a reloading press or non-custom dies isn't causing this.

Lastly, co-axes, 419s , prazis are undoubtedly nice to have; they're the bentlys/rolls/lambos of our game. That said, assuming everything else is done correctly, they probably will not alter your score; if they did, literally all of us would be using them. A $500-$1,500 press is a rain drop in the ocean relative to what a lot of guys have tied up into this.

 

[MarkG]

I’ve seen many people recommend using an o-ring to improve alignment by letting the die float. There are other suggestions to add float to the shell holder by removing the retaining clip and substituting an o-ring. If these recommendations are indeed helpful, then why is the lack of play between the ram and the frame important?
I’m not saying it’s unimportant but I’m trying to understand the float recommendations vs the radial precision of the ram. The precision of the limit on the upward stroke is definitely important but not so much if this is controlled by contact between the shell holder and the bottom of the die.

 

[dcali]

I’ve seen many people recommend using an o-ring to improve alignment by letting the die float. There are other suggestions to add float to the shell holder by removing the retaining clip and substituting an o-ring. If these recommendations are indeed helpful, then why is the lack of play between the ram and the frame important?
I’m not saying it’s unimportant but I’m trying to understand the float recommendations vs the radial precision of the ram. The precision of the limit on the upward stroke is definitely important but not so much if this is controlled by contact between the shell holder and the bottom of the die.

A lot of guys don't run the shell holder all the way to the die. But any sort of reasonable ram to frame clearance will be plenty. It's just geometry.