Imperfect anneling vs non at all

[Straightshooter1]

Actually do flame change now more then anything I'll check with a bit of tempaqi just to see but usually just run it till the flame changes. Apparently that actual anneling because that's when stuff starts to burn off ? Idk there so many different whatevers when it comes to anneling. Part of the reason I do it is again most of my brass is 1x fired and it makes resizing a lot more uniform and less of a pain....that and if I hurt a extra firing or two lol
View attachment 1645297

What you see when the "flame changes" is typically the residual cleaning solution and/or sizing solutions left on the surface of the brass. . . in addition to any burnt powder coating, like what might be left inside a fired case mouth. The elements that make up the alloy (Brass) does not get burned off (e.g. zinc) until the alloy becomes liquid. . .even though zinc, by itself, has a much lower melting point.

 

[Wolfdog91]

What you see when the "flame changes" is typically the residual cleaning solution and/or sizing solutions left on the surface of the brass. . . in addition to any burnt powder coating, like what might be left inside a fired case mouth. The elements that make up the alloy (Brass) does not get burned off (e.g. zinc) until the alloy becomes liquid. . .even though zinc, by itself, has a much lower melting point.

Well something interesting I noticed is most of the time if I do it with the lights dimmed the brass does start to glow right as I get that flame change so ....maybe there something to that ? No sure

 

[Webster]

My question is this...When annealing cases why do you see some cases start to glow red much sooner than others.I have always thought it might be because some cases had more impurities than others.( heat source staying constant) Am I wrong in my thinking.

When I anneal with a single propane torch I never see some cases get red sooner than others. In some of the annealing video's I see uneven heating of the neck. I push the flame tip into the neck so it wraps around. I hold the cases in a case holder from my neck turner and put it in an battery powered electric drill. About 9 seconds to get the necks red. I sit at my loading bench, put the torch on the floor and rotate the cases in the flame. A quick twist of the case holder loosens the case. I spin the drill and the case falls to the floor. Simple but it works.

 

[Webster]

Use tempilaq 1000, make sure it changes down to a sixteenth to 1/8" below shoulder-body jxn. This works for me. So-called "over" annealing is much preferred, most folks agree i think.

Templaq is not supposed to be used with a 2000F flame on it.

 

[searcher]

Your question is, I think, a good one. Scenario one is to not anneal. Your brass will continue to harden, your neck tension will become a bit different on each subsequent loading, the shoulder position will be harder to maintain on each loading and - eventually, you will likely experience cracked necks. How soon depends on brand of brass and how much sizing was used in your neck sizing, whether using an expander ball, etc. So, this creates a condition whereby your brass is going to likely produce a load that shoots just a bit different each time you shoot it due to the changing dynamic of the brass regarding headspace and neck tension. Being able to know how to adjust the load each new time you load that batch of brass to make the load shoot the same is not easy for most shooters.

Scenario two - as to your question, annealing unevenly. Now, provided you annealed enough to get the shoulders to set back without as much spring-back, you will have rounds where some have a bit more neck tension than others as some of the cases may have been overheated, reducing their bullet-holding properties. So, you get some deviation there too.

In my mind, if I at least know I got the brass to start to turn red, I know I likely got them hot enough to soften the shoulder to reduce the amount of spring-back when sizing, prevented neck splitting at least to some degree, yet realize my tension will be a bit off from round to round if I was inconsistent. There are clearly merits of looking at your question either way. That said, I've annealed brass much more than was needed (or wanted), yet I do believe the end result was more positive than doing nothing to the brass. If I were using brass previously fired in a different gun (or guns), I'd definitely take the option of unevenly annealed brass over not annealing it at all. I want those shoulders to be able to blow out easily to conform to my chamber and all the help they can get will be given. Brass that are all too short in "headspace" will not react the same just because they are all the same length. Brass that was a bit over-annealed will allow the shoulders to move forward more easily - and will harden up after firing.

 

[Fast14riot]

I built a "skip's annealer" for about $70, gives me digital time control for each case. Seems to give better results than a spark plug socket on a drill and metronome for timing. It's not an amp, but I feel any of the time controlled gas units are better than nothing.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Actually do flame change now more then anything I'll check with a bit of tempaqi just to see but usually just run it till the flame changes. Apparently that actual anneling because that's when stuff starts to burn off ? Idk there so many different whatevers when it comes to anneling. Part of the reason I do it is again most of my brass is 1x fired and it makes resizing a lot more uniform and less of a pain....that and if I hurt a extra firing or two lol
View attachment 1645297

I do the same
When the flame goes from blue to orange around the case I’m done.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Well something interesting I noticed is most of the time if I do it with the lights dimmed the brass does start to glow right as I get that flame change so ....maybe there something to that ? No sure

I see that same glow in a dark room at my normal stop point.

 

[ggshoots]

I feel flame annealing has helped me in not loosing any cases to splitting. In 22-250 especially I use to lose cases to splitting regularly but with the same brass and flame annealing that has stopped. I feel the neck tension is much more consistent and my groups are definitely better. I now anneal every firing. I'm a believer to try to set it correctly watching the flame and color but even if its a little off it is still way better than not doing it.

 

[Dave M.]

My question is this...When annealing cases why do you see some cases start to glow red much sooner than others.I have always thought it might be because some cases had more impurities than others.( heat source staying constant) Am I wrong in my thinking.

This is due to several reasons, but most notably:
1. Neck thickness differences
2. Impurities within the brass
3. contamination on the outer surface of the brass
4. Depending on the method of annealing, the method of holding the brass relative to the flame is a huge factor
5. How full your propane bottle is and how long the setup has been running will effect the energy output
6. If induction annealing, the reliability of the power source and ability to repeatedly position the brass in the coil the same piece after piece.

The ultimate setup for annealing is induction with post testing to confirm achieved hardness. The brass must be aligned in within the coil in the exact same position (both radially and axially) every time. Slight variations of the brass in the coil result in drastically altered workpiece loading on the coil. Technically, brass should be pre-wiped with alcohol prior to annealing. I have to be honest and say that I don’t do this for my own brass but I do take the time to pre-wipe each piece when I anneal for a customer. The magnetic flux within the coil is super consistent from piece to piece assuming the input voltage and current can be closely controlled.
Annealing by flame has so many variable that make it inconsistent at best. Is it better than not annealing? Yes, assuming you closely control the holding of the workpiece in relation to the flame and use a larger propane tank size (20lb tank) that essentially negates the change in thermal output of the flame over each annealing session. Induction is king when it comes to annealing brass both super fast and extremely consistently from piece to piece. A simple test to determine how accurately you are annealing your brass, is to randomly select 5 pieces after annealing (let them fully cool to room temp) and without looking take each piece of brass and use your thumbnail to gently press on the top of the neck with the same force on each piece. Now look at the five pieces when you are done. If the dents are relatively the same on all five pieces, then you are doing a fairly consistent job annealing your brass. Short of testing the hardness after annealing there is no better way to determine the effectiveness of your setup.
Final note, under annealing brass is virtually like having never done anything to it; and contrary to popular belief, it is MUCH harder to ruin brass by “over annealing” it. Easy to have wildly varying hardnesses of brass pieces, but very hard to “ruin” it.

Dave

 

[Deadmeat1899]

This is due to several reasons, but most notably:
1. Neck thickness differences
2. Impurities within the brass
3. contamination on the outer surface of the brass
4. Depending on the method of annealing, the method of holding the brass relative to the flame is a huge factor
5. How full your propane bottle is and how long the setup has been running will effect the energy output
6. If induction annealing, the reliability of the power source and ability to repeatedly position the brass in the coil the same piece after piece.

The ultimate setup for annealing is induction with post testing to confirm achieved hardness. The brass must be aligned in within the coil in the exact same position (both radially and axially) every time. Slight variations of the brass in the coil result in drastically altered workpiece loading on the coil. Technically, brass should be pre-wiped with alcohol prior to annealing. I have to be honest and say that I don’t do this for my own brass but I do take the time to pre-wipe each piece when I anneal for a customer. The magnetic flux within the coil is super consistent from piece to piece assuming the input voltage and current can be closely controlled.
Annealing by flame has so many variable that make it inconsistent at best. Is it better than not annealing? Yes, assuming you closely control the holding of the workpiece in relation to the flame and use a larger propane tank size (20lb tank) that essentially negates the change in thermal output of the flame over each annealing session. Induction is king when it comes to annealing brass both super fast and extremely consistently from piece to piece. A simple test to determine how accurately you are annealing your brass, is to randomly select 5 pieces after annealing (let them fully cool to room temp) and without looking take each piece of brass and use your thumbnail to gently press on the top of the neck with the same force on each piece. Now look at the five pieces when you are done. If the dents are relatively the same on all five pieces, then you are doing a fairly consistent job annealing your brass. Short of testing the hardness after annealing there is no better way to determine the effectiveness of your setup.
Final note, under annealing brass is virtually like having never done anything to it; and contrary to popular belief, it is MUCH harder to ruin brass by “over annealing” it. Easy to have wildly varying hardnesses of brass pieces, but very hard to “ruin” it.

Dave

Thank you very much for your informative and most helpful comments. You have confirmed what I was thinking and given me a better insight into the process. I abandoned the flame process long ago and have been doing the induction annealing with an Annie. Again thank you for taking the time to elaborate. Good shooting.
Regards

 

[G Liles]

To anneal or not anneal that is the question!!

 

[Rock Knocker]

How many worry about cleaning brass before annealing? Ive always rubbed the neck and shoulder good with steel wool. I figure, most the black buldup on a case is carbon, corbon is a very good insulator.

 

[KMW 1954]

After all comments, my take on this.

I was shooting 223 as my first rifle and to be used as a target rifle. To keep costs down and to learn the ins and outs I was reloading range pickup brass with no idea from which it came. After loading and shooting this for a year and developing my technique and knowledge both I and my loads were improving. I then got to a point where I kind of hit a wall and then a few of the regular league shooters kept asking me if I was annealing my brass. I wasn't. I was also seeing a good number of unexplained fliers.

From there I started with the flame and cordless screwdriver method. For which I was quickly informed by many that there is zero consistency by doing it this way. I had to agree. Though by doing this with it's inherent inconsistency I quickly saw a reduction in the number of fliers I was getting. So it must have done something beneficial. Since then I have been working on my technique and improving my consistency.

Doing this clearly improved my 223 loads.

 

[Rock Knocker]

I never put a super serious attempt into it but I always made sure to anneal every 3 loadings at least. I started out with the drill and spark plug socket. I had better luck with the cheap little Lee case head grabber tool, and I would hold and spin the little tool in my hands and I wouldnt need the large drill. I dont feel like high RPM on the brass is needed for a decent annealing, you probably want some RPM but I can do that by hand.

I would normally anneal in the dark bathroom with a bowl of cold water, or sometimes with small batches just let the sink run some cold water, I would anneal and then dip at least the top half of the case into water quick and then drop them into a bowl of finished cases.

I tried a good few times to hold the case heads by hand while propane annealing, the tool is less painful.

 

[Doom]

From a heat treating process @Dave M. has given the correct response to the issue of annealing process and results as far as hardness and consistency are concerned. While flame annealing (or attempts at it) can reduce the hardness of the case induction annealing will ultimately be more precise because the the primary variables of heat input to the workpiece and time are better controlled. If the goal is case longevity then both methods should and most likely will extend brass life over no annealing.

The question as to whether this results into more precision and accuracy is a more subjective subject. Unfortunately, without performing testing removing the shooter from the test it's not likely that any testing is going to be definitive and even then the amount of data required would be excessive. However what we are sure of is that consistency from piece to piece (case) and reloading to reloading should reduce the shot to shot differences in velocity and ultimately point of impact on target. Ultimately whether or not annealing will benefit a given shooter is mostly dependent on the shooters ability probably more than on the annealing process.

 

[SeabeeKen]

.....well.im not really at the level or trying to were alot of y'all are honestly. 1"- 3/4" groups at 100yd and I'm extremely happy.
Not to mention I'm usually using 1x fired brass , starline new if I feeling really spendy... But the level many of y'all are operating at and what I'm operating at are two different tiers

And sorry I didn't have the $1200 for amp ...it's just not that serious for me

Back in the 70's before I ever heard of annealing I was competing in local matches with a Savage factory 243 rifle. The rifle was putting Hornady 100 gr Interlock bullets in the same hole and placing in the top 3 consistently. I shot that brass until they showed signs of head separation. It never was annealed. I do anneal now though

 

[243winxb]

get worse performance from not the best annealing

To much heat, not good.

Not enought heat, may be ok? Stress Relief. 485F degrees.

"Stress Relief vs. Annealing:
Stress relief aims to reduce internal stresses caused by cold working (like forming the case) without significantly softening the material. Annealing, on the other hand, involves heating the material to a higher temperature to soften it."

 

[Doom]

For anyone interested in some test and research on the effects of brass annealing the guys at AMP have done some extensive testing and metallurgical analysis. This is by far the best information available on the internet specific to Brass. Biased? Of course but with actual data to back it up.

Induction Annealer | The Latest Research | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[Juma]

So the old timers annealing by twirling the case in their fingers over a candle did not produce good groups. Woteva. Its not rocket science but if the carnival barker yells at you that you need an expensive piece of equipment to anneal just remember the golden word ... democracy; the choice is yours.