If I understand correctly, you size 26cal necks to 28cal for a 7-6.5 PRC.
I would have liked to read this post, positive or negative. Too bad I missed it. Being a new guy I appreciate all the information I can gather, then take the time to think about it and go forward based on new ideas.
Funny thing about posting on the internet, despite what one may believe, there is no erase button.
Lmao.Funny thing about posting on the internet, despite what one may believe, there is no erase button.
orkan replied to a thread you are watching at Shooters' Forum.
I have great success with my AutoDOD across over a dozen cartridges, including BRA's from .20 to 6mm.
Two critical things to understand.
1) You can't expect the cutter to dive in and out of the material and cut the same amount of material on both sides of the case. Physically impossible without the machine itself automatically controlling cutter depth based on super sophisticated pre-programmed material offsets in the machine. Nothing the autodod has or can do.
2) You don't get to just set the cutter at whatever depth, and not control the feed speed correctly. The cutters flex, so if you're trying to pull too light, or too deep a cut... the speed will need to be set accordingly, or the cutter will just flex and not take the full cut. This is greatly amplified by the previous point.
Then there's about 500 little things that you need to know to get the best success. The same things you'd need to know to run a full production CNC machine to aerospace tolerance. ... but when you've got the basics, it's not really necessary.
The only thing I see over and over when people share their poor experiences with the AutoDOD is a very distinct lack of the kind of knowledge required to properly use it. This is really unfortunate, because it takes a bit of higher understanding of metallurgy and machining background which is really hard for some people to grasp in order to properly use the AutoDOD.
The only gripe I have about the AutoDOD is that Bryan has compromised with the "that's too expensive" crowd too much. Though can you blame the guy? Every time I see an AutoDOD post, half the people complain about the price, the other half complain they can't get theirs to work right, and the other half can't do math well enough to know that two halves make 100% and there isn't even room for them to advocate for whatever stupid little piloted cutter they are advocating for.
Personally I'd like to see a full CNC model with a tool rack and auto-swap heads to include state of the art sensing probes... so I could tell the machine what neck thickness I want, and just hit a button and have it setup the correct offsets and produce the cut I want right on the money every time. I'll take an automatic pneumatic collet to hold the cases as well please!
It's very unfortunate that the learning curve to cut metal is so steep, but it is. The process can be made really simple by shoving a pilot in there and you can con the end user into thinking it's producing a great result really easily... so that's what all Bryan's competitors do. However, those of us that know... know that the AutoDOD can and does produce a better result when used properly. Though it's no question which is more demanding on the user to setup and operate.
Having a great product that takes a lot of specialized knowledge to operate, puts the manufacturer of said product in a nearly impossible position. There is simply no teaching complicated principles to people that aren't gifted to learn such things. Everyone thinks they are smart... literally everyone. I'm convinced that most people could be taught to run an AutoDOD effectively. However, based on what I've seen... I'm not sure that most people want to invest that kind of time. I've talked with 2 people that have machining backgrounds that own AutoDOD's and they love them. I love mine. I've helped a few shooters I mentor get theirs setup, as they struggled a bit with not having proper metallurgical/cutting knowledge at first as well.
I'm not saying that is the case here... but it sometimes people aren't qualified to evaluate things. Some people are very smart, but just can't see what the inventor saw, so they don't know what to do with it or how to use it. That can take time and effort to overcome. Other times, (probably not the case here) the person doing the evaluation isn't experienced enough to evaluate a pop tart. Either way, the public likes a good drama, so some great products get cast in a bad light because of some very tainted "reviewers" acting in bad faith.
Regardless of what's taking place here, (because I don't know) I just wanted to post (which I basically never do here anymore) to say I have an AutoDOD and I'm not selling it, unless Bryan ever gets finished figuring out all the "upgrades" and I want to have him set one all up for me with the brass whacker and trimming option or something. lol
Seriously though, I do get tired of seeing great products painted in a bad light out of ignorance or malice or both. I don't say ignorance in a negative light, but more rather "inexperience." That can be bad too, if that inexperience isn't tempered with wisdom before bashing a product publicly.
-Greg
Primal Rights, Inc
... and no, I won't be replying to this thread again. I just thought someone that has an autodod and the knowledge to use it properly should say something to balance things out in here.
LMAOFunny thing about posting on the internet, despite what one may believe, there is no erase button.
orkan replied to a thread you are watching at Shooters' Forum.
I have great success with my AutoDOD across over a dozen cartridges, including BRA's from .20 to 6mm.
Two critical things to understand.
1) You can't expect the cutter to dive in and out of the material and cut the same amount of material on both sides of the case. Physically impossible without the machine itself automatically controlling cutter depth based on super sophisticated pre-programmed material offsets in the machine. Nothing the autodod has or can do.
2) You don't get to just set the cutter at whatever depth, and not control the feed speed correctly. The cutters flex, so if you're trying to pull too light, or too deep a cut... the speed will need to be set accordingly, or the cutter will just flex and not take the full cut. This is greatly amplified by the previous point.
Then there's about 500 little things that you need to know to get the best success. The same things you'd need to know to run a full production CNC machine to aerospace tolerance. ... but when you've got the basics, it's not really necessary.
The only thing I see over and over when people share their poor experiences with the AutoDOD is a very distinct lack of the kind of knowledge required to properly use it. This is really unfortunate, because it takes a bit of higher understanding of metallurgy and machining background which is really hard for some people to grasp in order to properly use the AutoDOD.
The only gripe I have about the AutoDOD is that Bryan has compromised with the "that's too expensive" crowd too much. Though can you blame the guy? Every time I see an AutoDOD post, half the people complain about the price, the other half complain they can't get theirs to work right, and the other half can't do math well enough to know that two halves make 100% and there isn't even room for them to advocate for whatever stupid little piloted cutter they are advocating for.
Personally I'd like to see a full CNC model with a tool rack and auto-swap heads to include state of the art sensing probes... so I could tell the machine what neck thickness I want, and just hit a button and have it setup the correct offsets and produce the cut I want right on the money every time. I'll take an automatic pneumatic collet to hold the cases as well please!
It's very unfortunate that the learning curve to cut metal is so steep, but it is. The process can be made really simple by shoving a pilot in there and you can con the end user into thinking it's producing a great result really easily... so that's what all Bryan's competitors do. However, those of us that know... know that the AutoDOD can and does produce a better result when used properly. Though it's no question which is more demanding on the user to setup and operate.
Having a great product that takes a lot of specialized knowledge to operate, puts the manufacturer of said product in a nearly impossible position. There is simply no teaching complicated principles to people that aren't gifted to learn such things. Everyone thinks they are smart... literally everyone. I'm convinced that most people could be taught to run an AutoDOD effectively. However, based on what I've seen... I'm not sure that most people want to invest that kind of time. I've talked with 2 people that have machining backgrounds that own AutoDOD's and they love them. I love mine. I've helped a few shooters I mentor get theirs setup, as they struggled a bit with not having proper metallurgical/cutting knowledge at first as well.
I'm not saying that is the case here... but it sometimes people aren't qualified to evaluate things. Some people are very smart, but just can't see what the inventor saw, so they don't know what to do with it or how to use it. That can take time and effort to overcome. Other times, (probably not the case here) the person doing the evaluation isn't experienced enough to evaluate a pop tart. Either way, the public likes a good drama, so some great products get cast in a bad light because of some very tainted "reviewers" acting in bad faith.
Regardless of what's taking place here, (because I don't know) I just wanted to post (which I basically never do here anymore) to say I have an AutoDOD and I'm not selling it, unless Bryan ever gets finished figuring out all the "upgrades" and I want to have him set one all up for me with the brass whacker and trimming option or something. lol
Seriously though, I do get tired of seeing great products painted in a bad light out of ignorance or malice or both. I don't say ignorance in a negative light, but more rather "inexperience." That can be bad too, if that inexperience isn't tempered with wisdom before bashing a product publicly.
-Greg
Primal Rights, Inc
... and no, I won't be replying to this thread again. I just thought someone that has an autodod and the knowledge to use it properly should say something to balance things out in here.
Jackie, help me understand why you think this is so.
No, that part we agree on. Thanks for the reply.
I agree with you on the matter of surface finish. My observation using a borescope is the surface imperfections of extruded necks are largely axial, turned necks on the other hand, exhibit radial imperfections, it's the nature of the beast.
Hey @mikecr, I switched to the 7-6.5 from the 284 Shehane and I only ordered the fire formed case holder from FCP. I have not checked runout on virgin 6.5 PRC Lapua brass, and, as such, that might be a good option for me. As I stated above, I have ordered reamers with tighter neck dimensions and will experiment with taking more material off the necks to see what happens with downrange processes like neck sizing, busing selection, mandrels, bullet grip and seating pressure.
Your logic implies that nothing can improve.
As someone who goes the easy rout and suffers the consequences - how important do you think it is it to do it right? I've always just necked up (in 2 or 3 steps), turned, and shot. Are they prefect before I turn them? No - they're clearly *a little* crooked. Seeing as I don't formally compete with my .30BR, do I want to put more effort in? Also no. But I'm curious about what I'm leaving on the table.
This is the idea more of us could stand to take to heart. There is a point at which the problems you are solving are small compared to bigger problems you have. Even if those small problems are measurable, we get to a point where they are irrelevant - not even measurable in the context that includes the bigger problems. That's just how errors stack. Big errors dominate small errors into oblivion. Always chase the big errors first.
