I CANT LOAD ANY BETTER

[Homerange]

.....and ALL of these electronic devices use components, with acceptable tolerances of 1/2/5/10/15/20 % !!!

And yet if you've ever taken the trouble to even put a pair of even the cheap Crony's one behind the other you'll see a consistent 0.2% disparity in their readings. Now how can that be ?
Don't believe all the BS online without backing it up with facts.

 

[Dave M.]

Best I got was a 130gr compressed max 308 load with 6fps ES that shoots cloverleafs straight outta a ADI loading book. I not touching it ! !

Is ADI Powder the same as Hodgdon???
Dave

 

[RegionRat]

Is ADI Powder the same as Hodgdon???
Dave

Dave, No their relationship is seller and buyer, they are not tied in a corporate sense.

A better way to look at this is to say Hodgdon buys all their powder from outfits like ADI then packages and distributes it under different names. Hodgdon doesn’t actually produce the powder.

 

[M-61]

I probably look at things differently.
I don't own a chrono, nor am I buying one.
I was given a borescope. It's interesting, but my most accurate rifles have some really 'rough' looking bores.
My only interest is in group size. I have 3 that shoot as well as I can. (meaning mostly in the 2's and when everything is right, in the 1's.)
As I got older the groups got smaller. Back when I started BR shooting (1975) I was beaten consistently by gray haired men. Maybe the gray hair has something to do with it.
The speed between bullets is an unknown factor to me and after looking down my barrels I'm not sure that I shouldn't have returned the gift.
I see consistency, care, and practice as my answer. Practice and a cloudy still day!

 

[RegionRat]

I guess "rough" is a relative value.

I have seen some "rough" bbls, and even some that have shot well anyway. But I can also say that I have seen lots more bbls that were poorly made that didn't shoot worth a darn.

"Rough" might be an indicator for the attention to detail in the bbl manufacture. If it was the chamber, it also means something about the smith who reamed the bbl. Thankfully I have never been handed an ugly one when spending my own money, other than the factory hammer forged bbls that came on some rifles I bought off the shelf.

Cosmetic indicators for workmanship are still no guarantee that a bbl will shoot, but they point to lots of things that went right rather than wrong. Clean steel, clean coolant, tool sharpening and wear, set up, etc, all have to be done right to avoid what we are discussing.

Yet, there may or may not be any correlation to performance based on cosmetics. It does take some serious defects to say for sure a bbl is scrap, but I would never want to be in that debate for my own money. Cosmetic workmanship is a good indicator of what to expect. Stringers, comets, pull-outs, inclusions, pits, etc., are not a good thing to see in bbl steel, nor is tool chatter, roughness, profile, galling, etc.. These are indicators and warnings.

Without a doubt, Nick's progress with his speed stats means his loading process is improving. It is an indicator that a number of things he is doing are on track and under control. Based on that, there is nothing that stops him from tuning any way he wants.

We all (many of us) know that short range BR and even some 1000 yard work has shown that sometimes the tightest groups do not come at the speeds that give a tight ES. Many BR records were made by folks who never timed their loads at all. That said....

The point isn't about electronics tolerances, bbl finishes, chronographs or speed stats, it is about the indicators that Nick's reloading process is tight and under control. If he were interested in unknown distance shooting or ELR shooting, speed stats would be a different priority. He has been able to master many things to get to that result and with those processes under control he can tune his load were he wants it to be. For him, it represents a type of personal best and we should be happy for him.

 

[M-61]

and we should be happy for him.

And I certainly am.
I should not have posted my thoughts.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Consistent speed doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t shoot good on paper.

So don’t be fooled by the false hype. Chronographs can throw you off and lead you astray. I only use chronographs to get an average speed and watch velocity gains with charge increases to know when I’m approaching max pressure. I never care what my ES and SD are. I only care about what shows up on the paper because I’ve had a lot of loads over the years with a 20+ fps ES shoot way smaller than loads with 3 fps ES. Sometimes my best groups have a small ES, sometimes they have a fairly large ES. Doesn’t matter one bit to me so long as the rifle is accurate and consistent.

A good tune doesn’t care about ES and SD. The barrel will let you know what it likes, NOT the numbers that pop up on an electronic device ‘attempting’ to precisely measure the velocity of a very small projectile traveling thousands of feet per second.

While I agree with you low ES/SD does not necessarily mean good groups, at longer ranges low ES/SD sure does matter.

 

[Sebrock]

While I agree with you low ES/SD does not necessarily mean good groups, at longer ranges low ES/SD sure does matter.

It actually does to a certain extent but most of the misses is the WEZ analysis above is due to horizontal dispersion (even with a +/- 2mph wind confidence and I suppose 100% right on wind direction - I need to look at my AB software to see if its just speed or direction - its been a while). It also shows that at 15sd or below, the better wind reader wins. The vertical dispersion between 15sd and 5 sd is different in tightness but for a 2 MOA target both are almost at 100% without taking into account the horizontal. I think Mike for Long Range with the Lillys did a video on this yesterday. Regardless, great job with that load - certainly better to work with a good one than a bad one and allows you to focus on wind calls and other tuning.

 

[INTJ]

While I agree with you low ES/SD does not necessarily mean good groups, at longer ranges low ES/SD sure does matter.

Even at 1000 yds, ES/SD is only rough indicator. We can theorize and simulate all we want, but targets are what tell the story. There are many LR BR competitors on this forum who have shot 2-3" and under 1000 yd 5-shot and 4-5" and under 10-shot groups at 1000 yds. Those loads have ES all over the place. Many of us don't even use a chronograph for final tuning.

 

[Minshooter]

Best I got was a 130gr compressed max 308 load with 6fps ES that shoots cloverleafs straight outta a ADI loading book. I not touching it ! !

And... What's the load?
I promise not to tell anyone.

 

[Homerange]

And... What's the load?
I promise not to tell anyone.

Just checked notes and it isn't quite the full compressed load but a grain less.

Data – Rifle

Whenever practicable, avoid loading to maximum possible velocity. Safety Data Sheets include all information relating to product composition, safety, handling and storage.

www.adiworldclass.com.au

2208/Varget 49gr, 130gr Hornady #3020 in Fed M1A brass for ~2985fps.

Hope it serves you well.

 

[Newhouse]

Nicely done. Being basically new to reloading I have a lot to learn from everyone here. My ES using magnetto is 30 fps for my 223. The groups are different story.
Oh @Nick Caprinolo, what barrel contour do you have ?

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

Nicely done. Being basically new to reloading I have a lot to learn from everyone here. My ES using magnetto is 30 fps for my 223. The groups are different story.
Oh @Nick Caprinolo, what barrel contour do you have ?

Heavy Palma

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

I use the chronograph occasionally. When I do, it is to make comparisons between the properties of one powder to another, or between bullets and when a group of folks suggest that a certain speed is optimum for a given caliber, advice you see often among benchrest shooters. Another reason I did that yesterday was that I had moly coated 10 bullets and wanted to test what affect it had. In my test, it was inconclusive as there was only a few FPS difference.

In most cases, speed is of no consequence as I have proven to myself that I can load lighter powder loads and get better results in some cases. I don't even own a chronograph. I use my range buddies when I want to check something. Like others here have already stated, the proof is in the pudding, which in this case is the target.

This rifle is very accurate, but it is a work in progress. I need to shorten the stock causing me to have too much body contact because I need to stretch my arm in order to properly finger the trigger. I also need to reposition the scope. The mounts I am using will not allow me to get the scope far enough to the rear.

 

[Big_Daddy]

Excellent job of the consistency.
Something to be proud of.

I won't comment on group size since that is not what this post was about.

As far as Chronographs go....They are simply one more "tool" that I use during load development.

We freaked everyone at the range out one day a few years ago.
We had a Magneto Speed mounted on a rifle with a LabRadar set up and shooing thru an Oehler 35P chronograph. People were looking at us like "What the hell"...LOL

It was a fun exercise. I will leave it at that...LOL