hunting subsonic???

[Catfur]

Take a honkin' big bullet and a .45 Raptor or .500 Auto-Max and you could even make a subsonic AR that splat most anything.

 

[alinwa]

YEAHHH BAYBIEEEE!!!!

This is what I posted this thread for.... THANK YOU GUYS who're posting about the big stuff!

I'm not dis'ing on the 30's, they're fun, but I live in elk country and I'm looking for input on stuff that lays a trail of carnage. I have some of the "big" AR's.... a 458 SOCOM and a 50Beowulf but as Wedgy points out above THE LOADS I SHOOT will tear AR UP!! I've spent time on the phone with the guys who came up with the SOCOM (Teppu Jutsu, Tromix Buddy already done tol' me "we've gotten op to 450gr") and Beowulf (Bill Alexander) and they've both told me my stuff will flat out bust an AR apart.

So Spook..... that 950 cast, you must be shooting that in a heavy gun? something 12lb or more? Or are you seriously that manly?

And yes, those Lehigh bullets are cool...... not as accurate as I want, but cool

TimS... Again, bolt action?? 570's? How heavy the gun and how hellacious the recoil?

In my case, I was just blown away by the recoil....I started by modifying several rifle cases, tried the Beowulf and ended up making a shouldered round from 338 Lapua cases. I put together a fairly nimble hunting package, tried a bunch of powders, working up loads with 14 different powders from Bullseye/Red Dot/Clays stuff up through the 4350/Varget stuff and into Retumbo/H1000 ..... the slow powders MAINLY trying to up the volume, the waste gas, to try get my muzzle brakes to actuate.

NO luck.

Pushing 750-900gr to 1050 just H A M M E R S me in a light gun....... I'm worried about losing a retina.

Back in one of my gunstore jobs I had a boss who was a cop. We used to shoot "3 Inch Police Buckshot" loads he brought us through 870's for "fun" and even had a guy get a hernia, for real, from shooting one of these loads thru a Mossberg 500 pistol-gripped thingy "breaching a door"...... those loads KICKED. I don't even know where they came from or what they were...... but you put one of those in an H&R Topper and it'll maybe feel like my subsonic 50 (BTW I named it the "Fifty Fart" cuz..... well stand to the side and lissen...)


Sooo, to you'se guys rocking these big dawgz..... tell me about recoil.......

-stock design? (this I haven't messed with)
-thicker/wider recoil pad? (this isn't the whole problem in my case.... it doesn't BRUISE, it give me medulla elongatus, makes me walk like a chikken)
-muzzle brakes don't do anything
-just deal with it?




thanks

 

[Ledd Slinger]

For subsonic hunting, I prefer a Carbon Express 380gr projectile from a Mathews Chill R at about 300 fps

 

[alinwa]

For subsonic hunting, I prefer a Carbon Express 380gr projectile from a Mathews Chill R at about 300 fps

Boy are we on opposite sides of the road on this one!

I'm still shooting an ancient carbon Bear/Jennings that pushes 627gr arrows to around 280 for over 100ftlb of energy...... I detest those liddle toothpick setups

I guess I likes my bows like I likes my guns...... only the heaviest bullets per caliber interest me.

 

[dcali]

Crazy recoil idea: use a brake that directs the gas directly backwards. Wear goggles.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Boy are we on opposite sides of the road on this one!

I'm still shooting an ancient carbon Bear/Jennings that pushes 627gr arrows to around 280 for over 100ftlb of energy...... I detest those liddle toothpick setups

I guess I likes my bows like I likes my guns...... only the heaviest bullets per caliber interest me.

I suppose we are. Not calling you a liar, but I think that speed is a bit exaggerated or you are mistaken on arrow weight... You would need about a 350-360fps IBO rated bow pulling 80 lbs at a draw length of 30" or more to get around 280 fps with an arrow/broadhead that heavy. Even the fastest modern bows wouldn't be able to pull that off. No modern carbon arrows will give you that weight either, even with heavy broad heads, so would have to be shooting aluminum shafts.

 

[paperpuncher]

Heres my contribution its a 510 dia projectile, the case is a 338 norma shortened and necked to hold the bullet. I have used hard cast and jacketed projectiles from 575 to 750 grains in my limited testing. Rifle is a 700 LA with a brux 8 twist bbl.

 

[JRS]

I suppose we are. Not calling you a liar, but I think that speed is a bit exaggerated or you are mistaken on arrow weight... You would need about a 350-360fps IBO rated bow pulling 80 lbs at a draw length of 30" or more to get around 280 fps with an arrow/broadhead that heavy. Even the fastest modern bows wouldn't be able to pull that off. No modern carbon arrows will give you that weight either, even with heavy broad heads, so would have to be shooting aluminum shafts.

View attachment 1078099

I have a dozen GrizzlyStiks that weigh 875 grains without the broad head. There are heavyweight carbon shafts available from GrizzlyStik, Easton and Carbon Express.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I have a dozen GrizzlyStiks that weigh 875 grains without the broad head. There are heavyweight carbon shafts available from GrizzlyStik, Easton and Carbon Express.

Did not know that. Appreciate the info. Trying to keep up with archery tech is like trying to memorize the stock market prices every day. Lol

 

[alinwa]

I suppose we are. Not calling you a liar, but I think that speed is a bit exaggerated or you are mistaken on arrow weight... You would need about a 350-360fps IBO rated bow pulling 80 lbs at a draw length of 30" or more to get around 280 fps with an arrow/broadhead that heavy. Even the fastest modern bows wouldn't be able to pull that off. No modern carbon arrows will give you that weight either, even with heavy broad heads, so would have to be shooting aluminum shafts.

View attachment 1078099

Thank You!


Absolutely true glad you questioned it, most aren't aware of what it takes to make big energy be it a gun or a bow. I went thru 7 bows trying to find a setup that would produce the energy I wanted for elk. Darton built me one, Hoyt tried, the Oneida rep went away with his tail dragging..... finally Bear/Jennings came thru.

That's why I shoot my antique bow, because nothing modern beats it..... again, THERE IS NO NEW TECH!


Radical double cams, steel cableing, low brace height and most of all it's a 50% let-off setup with a 32" draw. I achieve the 32" draw by shortening up a rope release into my palm, ie the nock is touching the palm of my hand, knuckle in the ear, thumb under my jaw. Hard on the rotator cuff because all the strain is on the wrist strap, a finger behind the trigger until full draw.

And yes, I pull 85lb.

AND..... you're completely right about the arrows, Again you've nailed it. I did try some older thin-shaft Beemans where I filled the shafts with salt to bring the weight up but that didn't work out. 2514, 2219, 2516..... even back then I basically had to buy out the shops or special order shafts. 145gr broadheads, weight rings.

I set it up this way for several reasons. Back in the day we hunted 'wayy back in. I decided on a steel cable bow after a mishap where a guy nicked a cable with a broadhead. And, in extreme conditions bows tend to un-tune from wet cables. I couldn't afford that with a hundred ftlb setup that was tuned to shoot broadheads and fieldpoints to the same poi.

I used to go into the archery shops with my setup and guys would laff out loud. So I'd say "NO BUDGET, you show me a bow that will equal this, I'll buy it!"

Nobody could/can to this day.

They hate me on the 3D course cuz I knock the bear over.......

 

[alinwa]

Heres my contribution its a 510 dia projectile, the case is a 338 norma shortened and necked to hold the bullet. I have used hard cast and jacketed projectiles from 575 to 750 grains in my limited testing. Rifle is a 700 LA with a brux 8 twist bbl.
View attachment 1078102 View attachment 1078103 View attachment 1078104

Heavy lookin' feller the cartridge looks just like one of mine from the Lapua case......

Is that a 750 A-Max?

 

[alinwa]

I have a dozen GrizzlyStiks that weigh 875 grains without the broad head. There are heavyweight carbon shafts available from GrizzlyStik, Easton and Carbon Express.

Thank You! I didn't know these existed..... you might get me back into bowhunting....

That said, an elk is a lot tougher than a bear, jus' sayin'!

 

[paperpuncher]

Heavy lookin' feller the cartridge looks just like one of mine from the Lapua case......

Is that a 750 A-Max?

No it is some cheap milsurp I found not super accurate but fun to shoot lol
The brass colored bullets are Lehigh defense I am going to try the amax but I’m working some kinks out first

 

[JRS]

Thank You! I didn't know these existed..... you might get me back into bowhunting....

That said, an elk is a lot tougher than a bear, jus' sayin'!

I pull longbows ranging from 52# - 87# and shoot cedar, surewood and carbon shafts.

 

[alinwa]

Crazy recoil idea: use a brake that directs the gas directly backwards. Wear goggles.

Thank you..... that would seem to work wouldn't it?

It doesn't.

There's simply not enough gas to work with.

So far the most radical idea (AND, one that might actually work) comes from Boyd Allen. He told me to build a double-barrel, set it up to double every shot and use one barrel with blanks just to drive the brake!

And for the recoil, to set the barrel up on a semi-auto shotgun frame. I've tested the latter, with a scope mounted on the recoiling barrel, not workable.

I just can't get excited about the double-barrel idea because this unit absolutely carries radical killing energy to 600yds, I NEED the accuracy afforded by a bolt-actioned rifle. If the recoil issue can be resolved I will be testing it with a Genesis scope..... it is a freakin' KILLER setup which will easily range an elk (or, of course any bear) end-to-end. ie, a Texas heart shot will blow a hole out the sternum 6ft away..... the momentum of these big bullets is freaky, absolutely in a league beyond any modern bullet and setup. And I set up hunting rifles (I'm building 6 right now) SPECIFICALLY for the 280gr Barnes TTSX.

I've also got 2 375 CheyTac's and a 378 WBY in the shop right now, set up for shooting monolithic solids, and I'd be hard-pressed to believe any of them will penetrate like the big 50 going only 800-900fps.

After seeing pictures last week of what the 375 CheyTac does to an elk I don't think there's any real need for a 50BMG for hunting, but this short slow 50 makes me excited.

 

[alinwa]

I pull longbows ranging from 52# - 87# and shoot cedar, surewood and carbon shafts.

HOlee SH!T!! That's superhuman.... You would find my setup to be a relaxing stroll down a summer lane.

 

[JRS]

HOlee SH!T!! That's superhuman.... You would find my setup to be a relaxing stroll down a summer lane.

I played with compound bows a number of times, but just couldn't get used to them. I much prefer holding 16-30 ounces in my hand with my arm stretched out. Compound bows brought more hunters into the archery field. That's a good thing.

 

[JRS]

This bow at your draw length is 85#

 

[dcali]

Thank you..... that would seem to work wouldn't it?

It doesn't.

There's simply not enough gas to work with.

So far the most radical idea (AND, one that might actually work) comes from Boyd Allen. He told me to build a double-barrel, set it up to double every shot and use one barrel with blanks just to drive the brake!

No free lunch I suppose. Would probably help a little though. Might need windshield wipers on the glasses. The other problem with the double barrel (which is great, by the way) is that it sort of negates the point of subsonics. Perhaps make the stock into a very long spring. Or make it out of lead.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Thank You!


Absolutely true glad you questioned it, most aren't aware of what it takes to make big energy be it a gun or a bow. I went thru 7 bows trying to find a setup that would produce the energy I wanted for elk. Darton built me one, Hoyt tried, the Oneida rep went away with his tail dragging..... finally Bear/Jennings came thru.

That's why I shoot my antique bow, because nothing modern beats it..... again, THERE IS NO NEW TECH!


Radical double cams, steel cableing, low brace height and most of all it's a 50% let-off setup with a 32" draw. I achieve the 32" draw by shortening up a rope release into my palm, ie the nock is touching the palm of my hand, knuckle in the ear, thumb under my jaw. Hard on the rotator cuff because all the strain is on the wrist strap, a finger behind the trigger until full draw.

And yes, I pull 85lb.

AND..... you're completely right about the arrows, Again you've nailed it. I did try some older thin-shaft Beemans where I filled the shafts with salt to bring the weight up but that didn't work out. 2514, 2219, 2516..... even back then I basically had to buy out the shops or special order shafts. 145gr broadheads, weight rings.

I set it up this way for several reasons. Back in the day we hunted 'wayy back in. I decided on a steel cable bow after a mishap where a guy nicked a cable with a broadhead. And, in extreme conditions bows tend to un-tune from wet cables. I couldn't afford that with a hundred ftlb setup that was tuned to shoot broadheads and fieldpoints to the same poi.

I used to go into the archery shops with my setup and guys would laff out loud. So I'd say "NO BUDGET, you show me a bow that will equal this, I'll buy it!"

Nobody could/can to this day.

They hate me on the 3D course cuz I knock the bear over.......

Thats probably the worst elk hunting set up I have ever heard of!!! LOL! You"ve got to be kidding me right??? Does it shoot from a tripod and have a pulley crank to draw it? Gotta weigh a ton too.

I live in Montana with one if the highest elk populations in North America and have bow hunted them for many years. Trust me when I tell you that the wild contraption you described is not needed at all. A good quality fixed blade 100gr broadhead with a 250 grain carbon arrow with a properly placed shot will easily get the job done by on a bull elk EVERY time. Doesnt even have to be screaming fast. No amount of energy from an arrow is going to make up for a poorly placed shot on ANY animal. Anyone who thinks they need anything more is living in a dream and has never killed an animal with a bow.

I shoot a 340 IBO bow at only 62 lbs with a 29" draw and 85 percent let off. Why? Because anyone who has actually bow hunted elk and had a bull within shooting range knows you may need to hold at full draw for long time as the animal approaches your shooting position. Totally different than hunting deer from a tree stand. All ground and pound. Their eyes have unbelievable peripheral vision. If you can see their eyeball from any direction, they can see your movement. You try to draw a bow when at any point when they are looking remotely in your direction, they will be outta there faster than a bullet!