Hunting lease shooter proficiency Q
- Thread starter tthomp302
- Start date
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
I have seen a scaled target version of the paper plate test to be used at 100 yards. Called Effective Range Targets.
Depending on your group size at 100 yards, the target tells you what your max distance you should consider shooting an animal at.
Shooting a target like this will let you know if the hunter and weapon are up to the task.
Minute of mammal is harder than minute of target for some too.
Article that discusses the issue here too.
www.ssusa.org
Depending on your group size at 100 yards, the target tells you what your max distance you should consider shooting an animal at.
Effective Range Targets
Easily determine your individual effective and ethical hunting range with Effective Range Targets
www.determinatortargets.com
Shooting a target like this will let you know if the hunter and weapon are up to the task.
Minute of mammal is harder than minute of target for some too.
Article that discusses the issue here too.
An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Effective Range Targets For Realistic Practice
Should you take the shot? These targets are not only inexpensive, but they also clearly show where a shooter’s current limits are.
rjtfroggy
Gold $$ Contributor
Unfortunately, many so called hunters only pick up their deer rifle or any rifle once a year, and that is to go hunting. No going to sight it in or for any other reason.
In all truth the proficiency should be made at the time of issuing their first hunting license and rechecked every few years by the issuing agency, and we all know that will never happen.
I personally stopped hunting with a friend because I got tired of trying to track his deer every year because he not only could not track a bulldozer never mind a deer and he refused to practice with his rifles. He still calls at least once a year for help but with my bad knees I get to say NO CAN DO. This year I told him if he would learn to shoot, he would not need to track, He hasn't spoken to me since, and at 71 years old I don't care anymore.
So IMO your thoughts are more than reasonable.
In all truth the proficiency should be made at the time of issuing their first hunting license and rechecked every few years by the issuing agency, and we all know that will never happen.
I personally stopped hunting with a friend because I got tired of trying to track his deer every year because he not only could not track a bulldozer never mind a deer and he refused to practice with his rifles. He still calls at least once a year for help but with my bad knees I get to say NO CAN DO. This year I told him if he would learn to shoot, he would not need to track, He hasn't spoken to me since, and at 71 years old I don't care anymore.
So IMO your thoughts are more than reasonable.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
REJECTED.
If those members and guests do not pass your test, whatever it may be, throw them off the property.
That is when it gets hard to do. If you can't do it then don't do the test.
If those members and guests do not pass your test, whatever it may be, throw them off the property.
That is when it gets hard to do. If you can't do it then don't do the test.
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
Our Memorial Day Camp group used to have a seriously informal shooting contest. Usually around 30 to 50 people. Most folks used whatever rifle they hunted deer with.
Rules were simple: three shots, standing position, 100 yards. Target was I think called NRA slow fire, 100 yd target. It was on a 16" paper with about a 12" scoring bull.
The results were abysmal. Many folks never touched their target with a single shot let alone three. It was uncommon for most of them to have three shots in the black.
Most of these people bought a deer tag and hunted every year. I think this is a pretty accurate example of the skill level of average hunters on public ground.
jd
Rules were simple: three shots, standing position, 100 yards. Target was I think called NRA slow fire, 100 yd target. It was on a 16" paper with about a 12" scoring bull.
The results were abysmal. Many folks never touched their target with a single shot let alone three. It was uncommon for most of them to have three shots in the black.
Most of these people bought a deer tag and hunted every year. I think this is a pretty accurate example of the skill level of average hunters on public ground.
jdGood read. Written by Gus Fisher, one of the premier M1 and M14 builders.
www.m14forum.com
The Carlos Hathcock Method of Sighting in a Rifle.
As mentioned before, I was a very young Marine Sergeant when I came up to THE Marine Corps Rifle Team the first time as the junior Armorer. I didn't grow up using high power rifles. We used shotguns to hunt quail, rabbits, squirrels, pheasants, ducks and geese. I used a Mark I Ruger Target...
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MikeMcCasland
Team Texas F-T/R
Is this a high fence or low fence place? How many acres?
Depending on how those questions are answered, and if you're in a WMA will say a lot. 3-4 lost deer a year can be a drop in the bucket compared to a single bad neighbor.
I'd say a reasonable standard would be having them demonstrate hits on a ~3 MOA target out to say ~300 yards, but most of your typical Central Texas deer hunters aren't anywhere near the level of even a newbie match shooter. It's often factory guns, factory ammo, and you're lucky if they know which way to how to operate a turret without a manual. A lot of "well I zero'ed for 150gr, but Wal-Mart only had 168gr so I'll just hold a little higher"
The other challenge is that a lot of interesting stuff happens in the country when you're not around... Hunters bringing their buddies out there aren't going to want to tell their friends no when nobody will know the difference. You'd almost have to micromanage them for anything to be effective....and then you're driving clientele away.
My family leases out our place to a group of guys that have been hunting together for ~20-30 years. Before that it was leased out to corporate interests. I think a large part of cutting down on the "shenanigans" is just finding the right group of folks to lease to, that way you don't have to implement anything draconian.
Depending on how those questions are answered, and if you're in a WMA will say a lot. 3-4 lost deer a year can be a drop in the bucket compared to a single bad neighbor.
I'd say a reasonable standard would be having them demonstrate hits on a ~3 MOA target out to say ~300 yards, but most of your typical Central Texas deer hunters aren't anywhere near the level of even a newbie match shooter. It's often factory guns, factory ammo, and you're lucky if they know which way to how to operate a turret without a manual. A lot of "well I zero'ed for 150gr, but Wal-Mart only had 168gr so I'll just hold a little higher"
The other challenge is that a lot of interesting stuff happens in the country when you're not around... Hunters bringing their buddies out there aren't going to want to tell their friends no when nobody will know the difference. You'd almost have to micromanage them for anything to be effective....and then you're driving clientele away.
My family leases out our place to a group of guys that have been hunting together for ~20-30 years. Before that it was leased out to corporate interests. I think a large part of cutting down on the "shenanigans" is just finding the right group of folks to lease to, that way you don't have to implement anything draconian.
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ken158
Silver $$ Contributor
Have them shoot from an elevated stand like they will be hunting in and have them shoot at a deer target which shows vitals. Points need to be in the kill areas and maybe hits in the non-vital areas get points deducted. This should impress upon the hunters to not shoot at moving animals and take time to hit a kill zone. This is not my idea but the Game and Fish in VA do this for management area hunts for archery shooters after they have won a tag in a raffle. They offer two tries and then get booted from the process if they cannot qualify.
Get a very good tracking dog.
AndrewB
Silver $$ Contributor
I agree with Ken 158. Sounds like the owners friends are inexperienced. I think that they would actually be grateful for lessons on where to shoot the deer, and to be sure that their rifles were sighted in so that when shooting from a elevated stand, they would actually hit the deer where they’re supposed to.
I went on a free range aoudad sheep hunt where I had to qualify. The guy didn’t want to hike up and down a mountain for me to miss a shot at a sheep.
I went on a free range aoudad sheep hunt where I had to qualify. The guy didn’t want to hike up and down a mountain for me to miss a shot at a sheep.
At my local range in PA. there is one father/son that shows up like clockwork the week before rifle season open.
The son goes to the 50 yard line and staples up a paper plate.
They then proceed to bring out a beautiful Weatherby Mark V stainless in 300 WBY Mag.
3 shots.
If all 3 hit the plate, anywhere on the plate, they are good to go!
Pack up & leave.
Another couple i met the other year were preparing for a guided moose hunt in Nova Scotia.
Bought a new 300 Win Mag.
Put up one of the largerst Shoot N See targets you can get at the 300 yard line.
And proceeded to put holes all around the outside edges of it from the bench.
They were happy they hit the target & declared themselves "moose ready".
The son goes to the 50 yard line and staples up a paper plate.
They then proceed to bring out a beautiful Weatherby Mark V stainless in 300 WBY Mag.
3 shots.
If all 3 hit the plate, anywhere on the plate, they are good to go!
Pack up & leave.
Another couple i met the other year were preparing for a guided moose hunt in Nova Scotia.
Bought a new 300 Win Mag.
Put up one of the largerst Shoot N See targets you can get at the 300 yard line.
And proceeded to put holes all around the outside edges of it from the bench.
They were happy they hit the target & declared themselves "moose ready".
Yup, that’s the Pennsyltucky I know and am afraid of!!
WV was worse, at least as far as opening day was concerned on public land.
Sounded like a war zone!
You could hear bullets going through the woods.
Spent the day hunkered down behind a log!
I factory rifle with factory ammo should shoot under 1.5 MOA. How many casual shooters have a bad flinch anticipating the rifle going off. I am left handed in the Army we had to shoot from behind a post. Left or right handed you had to shoot around the left side of the post. That meant that the M14 ejected cases bounced off the post into my face. I still hit the targets.
Working at a gun range part time for years I have seen many shooters who have more money in a scope than I do in my whole setup who can't shoot even close to 1moa at 100 yards.... I had a guy ask me if I wanted him to tape my five shot group off when he did his and I said sure , thank you... I tore off a piece of tape about as big as my thumb nail and handed it to him.... He laughed and said ya right.... He wasn't laughing when he came back.... He asked how do you shoot that well... I simply asked him how many rounds a year do you shoot.... He said maybe 10 , I looked at him and smiled , there's your problem right there...
His group with I nice Remington sendero and a night force scope was about 3-4 inches around and looked like a great buckshot pattern... I was shooting a savage T 10 with a vortex scope... Proves that money can't buy talent.... There's an old saying in the dirt track world... You can put a good driver in a bad car and he will do ok , but putting a bad driver in a good car and he will still be bad...
I have friends here that always talk sh$t about killing that buck at 350-400 yards with a rifle sighted in at 100 and they don't even make any adjustments to the scope , it's always I just held higher and pulled the trigger...it's amazing though when I take them to the range and hang a 6 inch target at 300 and say show me how the first thing they say is that's way longer than 300... Lol of course it's not , it's a gun range... Here in S. Texas most shots are way under 150 yards because of the brush.... One guys answer is I can kill deer all day but just can't shoot paper worth a damn....
Bullet drop at distance , understand wind even in the slightest , bullet spin compensation etc are lost concepts to most hunters... This is why there's so many wounded deer... Most guys shoot that ten rounds MAYBE to make sure the guns sighted in and that's all the practice they get a year... Shot placement is the key to any kill shot but how do you get good shot placement not knowing we're that bullet is going to hit...
Sorry so long but I agree with you completely and have witnessed what your saying so many times it's pathetic... I recommend to everyone of those guys to buy a decent rimfire and scope and at least practice with that at fifty yards... It's not expensive , you get to shoot it's a win win... My other thing is when you try to help someone learn to shoot a pistol and they say ohhh I grew up shooting a rifle so pistol will be easy... Then watch them put the target about 40 yards away and start banging.... I seriously need to start bringing a lawn chair...
The 'member' who brought the guest is responsible for that guest...and all things the guest does while on the lease. IMO, you're taking too much on personally. You should be managing the members and setting the standards for the lease for the member. The member should be held accountable for their guests. IF a guest shoots and wounds a Deer, the member should be held responsible. When a guest wounds a Deer the member should pay a fine and be notified of a 3 strikes policy on guests wounding deer. 3 wounds and the member is banned. If the guest is i.e hunting drunk...the member should be banned, if the guest is acting unethical the member should be banned. The idea is the member should be dealing with the guest and ensuring marksmanship AND behavior of the guest. IF you need to get involved, the member is not being a member you want on the lease.
The problem with most deer lease co-ops is money. If you can swing the whole lease payment yourself you would, then the rule would be my way or the Highway. Most need to pull their resources with others, thus the rub. You end up in partnerships with folks you do not know well, and very likely do not think or act the same as you. IMO to make the best of a hard to manage situation you need a small core that are dedicated to each other and the stated goals of the group. Think father, son, son in law, uncle, cousin. This small group within the lease, become the dictatorial leadership that establishes the written rules and goals, it is understood that it is their lease. Everybody else is always on a one year trial bases, every year you can vote them in or out. The core group members should pay 110 to 125% what the off the street guy pays. This gives you standing and the ability to have two tier levels of privilege. The number one goal of any deer lease should be to have fun, this is easier when you are not surrounded by jackasses.
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
Here is what Colorado requires for elk cull sharpshooters.
MAGNUM44270
Silver $$ Contributor
Here is what i would do.
1. Must be able to break a clay pigeon/cd at 200yds from the bench. Limit shots on game to 250yds.
2. Bonded or mono bullets. Nosler partition, accubond, accubond long range, interbond, Aframe, barnes, hammer, ect. No ballistic tips, no eldx, no bergers. 2 holes are better than 1 when a marginal shot happens.
3. If they wound an animal i would require they use/hire a tracking dog.
4. If wounded animal is still not found i would impose a fee, $250, $500, $1000? All depends on the quality and clientele of your lease
1. Must be able to break a clay pigeon/cd at 200yds from the bench. Limit shots on game to 250yds.
2. Bonded or mono bullets. Nosler partition, accubond, accubond long range, interbond, Aframe, barnes, hammer, ect. No ballistic tips, no eldx, no bergers. 2 holes are better than 1 when a marginal shot happens.
3. If they wound an animal i would require they use/hire a tracking dog.
4. If wounded animal is still not found i would impose a fee, $250, $500, $1000? All depends on the quality and clientele of your lease
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