How quickly do bullets "weld" to the neck?
- Thread starter miningshawn
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Bottom Fodder
Silver $$ Contributor
well I guess if your brass had loose primer pocket you could go ahead and prime then well ahead of loading and shooting and the primers would have time to “weld” to the primer pocket and you would have no problem, well I guess you maybe have use brass primers and not nickel plated
KMart
Gold $$ Contributor
One other thing that nobody so far has considered, is the smokeless powders we use. The powders are made from many chemicals mixed together, reacted, heated, cooled, and separated until we have a useful smokeless powder. The manufacturer wants to reclaim everything that will not sell as smokeless powder, but there will always be some chemicals that hang around trapped in that little kernel of powder. It is so small that it is measured in the PPM or PPB range.
Those trapped chemicals, over time will continue leach out of the powder. Some of them can and will attack metals. An example a lot of us have seen is the metal can of IMR powder sitting in a cabinet for extended periods. You grab it one day and the whole bottom of the can is eaten from the inside out and the powder will have a foul odor.
Just food for thought
Those trapped chemicals, over time will continue leach out of the powder. Some of them can and will attack metals. An example a lot of us have seen is the metal can of IMR powder sitting in a cabinet for extended periods. You grab it one day and the whole bottom of the can is eaten from the inside out and the powder will have a foul odor.
Just food for thought
IF “bullet weld” does occur under some set of conditions and circumstances (and I THINK I have experienced it) one should not assume the consequences are necessarily bad. In the case I think I experienced it, I saw a slight increase in velocity… it still shot well (but not as well as it had previously…) If I didn’t have a chronograph and was not comparing to a load with more powder that showed less velocity, I would have never suspected anything and attributed the group difference to my shooting that day. So, I offer that there is a lot of grey area in the discussion… and a lot of “it depends and/or maybe’s “…
The thing called cold-weld is the observed propensity for a brass case and a copper bullet to stick together when pressed.
Metallurgically, there is no such thing. You can take a piece of brass and a piece of copper and clamp them together, and no matter how long you wait, they will not stick together.
In the context of a loaded round, there is more going on that might affect the outcome, such as any substance that may arise inside the case due to the degradation of the powder, and it seeps between the case and the bullet, reacting with the metals and acting like a glue. Some old ammo has a green stain where the bullet meets the case mouth, as if some liquid seeped out from inside and dried there.
That is a bonding caused by chemicals, which is not a cold weld. And that is what I've encountered pulling old ammo.
With clean surfaces, the force to pull a bullet is higher than the force to seat the bullet, and that has to do with the energy required to keep two surfaces sliding against each other, compared to the energy to get them to begin sliding.
Maybe that is what the 'cold weld' is referring to, that difference in force ?
"bullet weld" is not a new topic, not at all. IMO there are people who deal with complication, preferring to live in the real world, and those who selectively ignore stuff, because it overloads their apparatus. No one makes anyone read or discuss any of this. There is even room in the world for guys who make YouTube videos telling shooters to turn their FL dies down until they touch the shell holder, back down the ram and then turn another eighth to quarter turn. Imagine that.
No, cold welding, as it has been termed happens. I'm done guessing why or what for but it happens. Along with not guessing as to why, it's likely under certain circumstances it happens sooner, later, or at all. But I've seen it with my own eyes and it's unmistakable. I'll leave the chemistry to the chemists but it definitely happens under the right circumstances. No doubt about that. It's just a fact, for whatever reason. Not picking on you but just because someone hasn't seen something themselves doesn't mean they are lying, mistaken or wrong.
This condition had a name coined to it, cold welding, many years ago. I'm younger than some and older than most but the name pre-dates me and me handloading ammo. To the doubters, I have to wonder how a name was coined many years ago for a condition that doesn't exist but is still being described today. Why is it so hard to believe that it happens? I don't understand, from the perspective of having seen it on multiple occasions. I don't pretend to know why, but I can guess like others. But seeing is believing to most of us and I never would've guessed people would act like the ones that have seen it would essentially be called liars for describing what they have seen. Then again, we live in times where I see a lot of things that I never thought I'd live to see.
Again, not pointed at anyone in particular but that's my pov, sitting here having a beer and reading this mess of a "discussion."
I agree. I have experienced the "click" on reloads and do not deny that some kind of change has occurred. I just haven't detected any adverse effects on performance. It's the performance aspect where I there may be the possibility of speculation.
If I see statistically significant test data that substantiates a performance effect, then I'll shut up. Just because so and so match competitor does something doesn't substantiate a performance effect.
I think I live in the real world, although with everything that's going on in this world today, I sometimes wonder.
I won't ignore something that can improve performance or something that degrades performance. But before I jump off the cliff, I would like to see some real test data or experiences that substantiate a claim. I am always open to leaning more or improving and I certainly am not an expert except maybe when in come to ground hog behavior.
As you no doubt have seen also, I have seen so much junk out there and claims and counter claims that I am very skeptical at times.
I think so but was there a performance effect? Is there a cause-and-effect relationship between the "pop" as you call it and results on target. If so, I am all ears. Explain what you observed regarding results on target from reloads with "bullet weld" versus those with no bullet weld. By the way, how do you know which rounds have bullet weld and those that don't unless you seat them just before you shoot them? How long does it take for bullet weld to show - which I believe was the OP's original question.
I keep making the same point over and over again, I am NOT challenging the "pop". I verified that too when I tested the premise on some round sitting for almost year. But I saw no effect on target of the other rounds in that batch. Year after year for more years than I can remember, I have had reloads carry over from season to season and they shoot the same as the previous year. That's all I am saying.
What I am seeking is some evidence that there is a performance effect.
DShortt
Gold $$ Contributor
I test ideas to see if they matter to me in my personal situation. If they don't I move on. If they do then I make adjustments to my process.
Applies to more than just what is discussed on this forum.
I would imagine that you are familiar with seating force gauges. There is the K&M, The 21st Century, and most recently the AMP. Shooters use these to sort out loads based on relatively small differences in force required to seat their bullets. They do this because they believe, or have observed that these differences effect accuracy. Why don't you ask any competitive shooter whether he thinks that say 100 pounds or more difference in seating force would affect accuracy?
The problem here is that we have no way to identify which rounds are cold welded and which are not. That is the crux of the problem insofar as testing is concerned. I can tell you one thing that most who have experienced this would agree with. When we have gone through a set of ammo, after finding one that was cold welded, not all were, and there was no visual way to tell them apart.
Cold welding is a fact, it's been written about for nearly 100 years.
Assuming perfectly clean bulletts and brass it starts immediately as the seating movement of the bullet stops. The purity of the welding will depend on the molecular makeup of the common elements. The atmospheric conditions at the time and storage conditions.
The cold welding is extremely weak. What happens is the bullet jump remains the same. The leading edge of the pressure curve will be increased in a minuscule amount due to the weld, also in a minuscule amount the time from ignition to the projectile lodging into the bore will increase.
The amount of affect of cold welding will have will be debated forever. In my opinion when I go and try to pull bullets that I can't pull, then I'll worry about it.
My experiance has been that pulling bulletts from the Boar War, WWI, WWII there was never any increase in difficulty from 6 month old Remington, Federal and Winchester factory that I pulled to get the components.
Assuming perfectly clean bulletts and brass it starts immediately as the seating movement of the bullet stops. The purity of the welding will depend on the molecular makeup of the common elements. The atmospheric conditions at the time and storage conditions.
The cold welding is extremely weak. What happens is the bullet jump remains the same. The leading edge of the pressure curve will be increased in a minuscule amount due to the weld, also in a minuscule amount the time from ignition to the projectile lodging into the bore will increase.
The amount of affect of cold welding will have will be debated forever. In my opinion when I go and try to pull bullets that I can't pull, then I'll worry about it.
My experiance has been that pulling bulletts from the Boar War, WWI, WWII there was never any increase in difficulty from 6 month old Remington, Federal and Winchester factory that I pulled to get the components.
I have absolutely no knowledge of other military ammo, but I believe that in this country for some of the .30 caliber stuff, the insides of the case necks had an asphalt coating. I have shot the ammo and seen it. Perhaps someone can fill in some details here.
Another consideration is that none of the military or factory ammo is reloaded, and much of what is reloaded has some residual combustion byproducts on the insides of case necks, often by design.
The reason that I have not had recent experience with this is that I have gotten into the habit of either loading at the range, or loading only the number of rounds that I can reasonably expect to shoot during my next range session.
Another consideration is that none of the military or factory ammo is reloaded, and much of what is reloaded has some residual combustion byproducts on the insides of case necks, often by design.
The reason that I have not had recent experience with this is that I have gotten into the habit of either loading at the range, or loading only the number of rounds that I can reasonably expect to shoot during my next range session.
Solvent from out gassing propellant.
So, what have we concluded?
Cold welding is real. But we cannot distinguish between those rounds that are cold welded and those that are not after they are fired. We cannot determine the length of time or other factors which may increase or decrease the cold-welding affect. Cold welding may not occur uniformly in the same batch of cases loaded at the same time. The effect on target is indeterminate. To avoid any potential ill effects of this phenomenon, either load at the range or immediately before departing for the range or seat the bullets long and reseat before shooting. Round that are not consume then become suspect for the next range session possibly to be used only as fouling shots. If I missed anything feel free to add or subtract.
Personally, I place this issue in the realm of cleaning and barrel break in. There are no clear or absolute answers or there wouldn't be all this controversy.
That’s funny. A couple pages back you were working the conjecture angle pretty hard.
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