I think that harmonic vibrations are reduced in a hummer barrel. This reduction translates to a more stable bullet flight. A bad crown could result in added harmonics or disruption of a "clean" exit. +1 on what Lee just posted.
How or why does a hummer barrel shoot better?
- Thread starter SS427
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butchlambert
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Well,
You can agree or disagree, but Tony Boyer has been by and far the best BR shooter ever and he still wins. I would say he is a hummer shooter. Tony believes in hummers. He shoots his barrels and grades them. Some are better than others. How many of you have had a barrel that was better than others? What would keep you from having a barrel occasionally being much better.
I don't think anybody knows for sure why some are better than others. I don't think the smith has as much to do with it as you think. I believe it just happens that all phases are correct in the barrel, excellent steel, all phases of machining the blank done properly, and a stress free blank when finished.
Several years ago"15maybe", My self and Bill Hull (Bill ran the Shilen barrel shop for many years) went to I believe they called it the first long range Nationals in Georgia. I took an armload of barrels, mostly for Billy Stevens. If Billy remembers and I'm sure he would, they all just shot unbelievable. If I had known how well they shot I would have saved one for myself.
Remember in the old days, the guy in Calif. I believe, Would use his real nice machine and I think video of the twist in your barrel and could tell any variance. I took a piece of barrel steel and sent it off to be cryo'ed, vibration, and some other stress relief. The barrel was machined, rifled, and air gauged. It was bore scoped and taper lapped with a .00005 choke. I sent it out to have the twist rate checked and it happened to be great. It went back for Cryo.
After all of this, it was a good barrel, but not a hummer.
Now for some reason or other barrels seem to like some bullets over others.
The football analogy is correct. I don't believe a wobble bullet will go to sleep and a football wobbling will not go to sleep either.
You can agree or disagree, but Tony Boyer has been by and far the best BR shooter ever and he still wins. I would say he is a hummer shooter. Tony believes in hummers. He shoots his barrels and grades them. Some are better than others. How many of you have had a barrel that was better than others? What would keep you from having a barrel occasionally being much better.
I don't think anybody knows for sure why some are better than others. I don't think the smith has as much to do with it as you think. I believe it just happens that all phases are correct in the barrel, excellent steel, all phases of machining the blank done properly, and a stress free blank when finished.
Several years ago"15maybe", My self and Bill Hull (Bill ran the Shilen barrel shop for many years) went to I believe they called it the first long range Nationals in Georgia. I took an armload of barrels, mostly for Billy Stevens. If Billy remembers and I'm sure he would, they all just shot unbelievable. If I had known how well they shot I would have saved one for myself.
Remember in the old days, the guy in Calif. I believe, Would use his real nice machine and I think video of the twist in your barrel and could tell any variance. I took a piece of barrel steel and sent it off to be cryo'ed, vibration, and some other stress relief. The barrel was machined, rifled, and air gauged. It was bore scoped and taper lapped with a .00005 choke. I sent it out to have the twist rate checked and it happened to be great. It went back for Cryo.
After all of this, it was a good barrel, but not a hummer.
Now for some reason or other barrels seem to like some bullets over others.
The football analogy is correct. I don't believe a wobble bullet will go to sleep and a football wobbling will not go to sleep either.
CatShooter said:
Last sentence...always what I thought (or think). Why will I read these different matters on the subject and run across a statement that uses the phrase "....the bullet doesn't 'go to sleep' for X number of yards". This was written in the context of a bullet not being particularly accurate at say 100 yards but then when it reaches 300 it is fine. I can't understand what force is making the bullet be MORE stable if indeed it starts out poorly?
Bullets shot in some barrels drift a lot less then others everything else being equal. I had barrels that at 1000 yards the more it blew the more they won by. I had identical barrels bought back to back and they all weren't the same for accuracy or wind drift. Sierra says the longer bullets don't lay down until they get out farther; like sometimes 300 plus yards. I believe that to be true because I have shot smaller MOA at 300 or 400 than 100 yards. Some barrels just shoot through conditions better.CatShooter said:
I had an instance where two barrels, made one after the other from same lot of steel and same barrel maker, same gunsmith (Ryan Pierce) shot head to head with very similar round count on them. Around 350 rds. Ryan shot a two day match clean, 1600-120X and I dropped 6 I think, however set a national record of 200-19X. Lent one of my guns (7mm) to a fellow shooter and she set a woman's national record same day. The conditions where about as good as they get, but the barrel, load gunsmithing all has to be top notch to do that. In our game of Class it does not get much better. My point is, I do not think we got the one in a million chance of 2 hummer barrels. They all (most) shoot that good. They where made with no special consideration.
I have another at home waiting to get chambered, when it is, I bet it will shoot just as good. There are a lot of ways to make a really good barrel shoot poorly. I do not shoot 100 yard benchrest like Tony Boyer, but I bet, after reading his book, he is keeping barrels that tune better to his load rather than tuning to the barrel. Now I am not saying you can make a silk purse out of a sows ear, but tuning loads will improve accuracy for any barrel. When a barrel is made to near perfection, that does not guarantee it is a hummer. Could be with the right smith, loads and shooter. I do not believe they are as rare as some would suggest. But that's just my opinion.
I have another at home waiting to get chambered, when it is, I bet it will shoot just as good. There are a lot of ways to make a really good barrel shoot poorly. I do not shoot 100 yard benchrest like Tony Boyer, but I bet, after reading his book, he is keeping barrels that tune better to his load rather than tuning to the barrel. Now I am not saying you can make a silk purse out of a sows ear, but tuning loads will improve accuracy for any barrel. When a barrel is made to near perfection, that does not guarantee it is a hummer. Could be with the right smith, loads and shooter. I do not believe they are as rare as some would suggest. But that's just my opinion.
Regardless of who makes the barrels and how hard they try to make them exactly the same, they will not be exactly the same. We may think that, because we don't have the ability to quantify or measure the difference that they are then the same. We are talking about such very small non-measureable differences that we just say that "they are the same". Shooting is a game of very small tolerances but the projectile "knows" the difference nonetheless. Does anyone else have a headache here but me?
butchlambert
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CSM19Z5M said:Regardless of who makes the barrels and how hard they try to make them exactly the same, they will not be exactly the same. We may think that, because we don't have the ability to quantify or measure the difference that they are then the same. We are talking about such very small non-measureable differences that we just say that "they are the same". Shooting is a game of very small tolerances but the projectile "knows" the difference nonetheless. Does anyone else have a headache here but me?
I completely agree.
butchlambert
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Donovan,
If the manufacturer knows not the reason, I don't think we do either. The manufacture and ourselves can just do the best we can with what is dealt to us.
If the manufacturer knows not the reason, I don't think we do either. The manufacture and ourselves can just do the best we can with what is dealt to us.
I wish someone coming across a hummer would take it out of service and have it blueprinted.
I believe Loather Walther has the capability to blueprint a barrel.
That is, actually measure all aspects of it.
The information would potentially benefit the shooting world -down the road(not today).
I believe Loather Walther has the capability to blueprint a barrel.
That is, actually measure all aspects of it.
The information would potentially benefit the shooting world -down the road(not today).
Donovan,I had two Brux both came at the same time and both were 6mm 7.83 to 1 twist both were frozen on two different guns with two different stocks and two different actions. Both shot equally well in the mid zero's at 100 yds but were average + in the wind but no hummer. Neither will out shoot the other,they are dead even …… jim
butchlambert
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mikecr said:
LW has no extra capabilities over the other barrel companies. Don't see any of their barrels tearing up the equipment list.
dmoran said:
Out of curiosity has anyone actually demonstrated the difference between a hummer and an average barrel. I'm interested to see if anyone has put a factual definition around a "hummer" barrel (in order for a theory to be submitted). For sure many have seen the difference an excellent barrel makes.
We do seem to attribute more to the hummer barrel than what ballistic theories would on the surface support.
Again out of curiosity - for those that win more in the wind with a hummer - do your x counts go up when its not blowing as much...or for the BR guys do you shoot smaller groups that are maybe centred a little better?
No disputing that some barrels can be made to shoot more precisely than others when all else appears the same but the hummer concept seems to take things a little further "in the wind".
Depending on the definition what is the difference between a hummer and a barrel with a tuner both shooting in the 1's?
Erik Cortina said:
Very good explanation, but I'm still not convinced because: If one bullet leaving the muzzle of one barrel, is not as stable upon leaving the barrel, as is another bullet leaving a different barrel, than how can the first bullet fly as consistently and accurately as the second? Even a slightly unstable bullet leaving a muzzle will do all kinds of things poorly before it stabilizes, regardless of wind. Look at your football analogy. When a ball leaves the throwers hand and does not immediately stabilize, you see it wobbling all over the place and it is not usually an accurate pass. The stable ball does go straight and hit where it is thrown (even if there is no receiver in the vicinity). You have a great deal more long range rifle experience than I do. But I can't get my head around the concept of understanding why, if the same Bullet leaves two barrels at the same velocity, and both are equally accurate without considering wind, why one would become more accurate at "bucking" wind than the other. It sounds more like a psychological factor to me. If you believe you and your gun will shoot better, it usually will.
M99 - IMO its all about the definition of a hummer. Read Johar1's posts, he seems to have the best definition and process that I have read with respect to hummers - but I have yet to get out of him if he thinks they are more accurate on the whole
I can totally relate to what Erik posted - last season I won pretty much everything up to a regional level (4/5 regionals)- shot the most number of possibles to boot. I even noted in my log book that "I could do no wrong".
This season I haven't bothered to tune the rifle for one reason and another. I am finding it much much harder - but If I check the load it isn't grouping nearly as well at 100 and 200 yards, so the difference is simply tune between the two seasons, and this explains a lot.
But if the definition of a hummer is that it is no more precise than the very best barrel or a rifle tuned with a tuner but it somehow still bucks the wind better...again I would be interested in a ballistic theory or otherwise which supports the concept....its definitely not magic....surely there isn't a law of physics as yet undiscovered that applies to external ballistics.
I can totally relate to what Erik posted - last season I won pretty much everything up to a regional level (4/5 regionals)- shot the most number of possibles to boot. I even noted in my log book that "I could do no wrong".
This season I haven't bothered to tune the rifle for one reason and another. I am finding it much much harder - but If I check the load it isn't grouping nearly as well at 100 and 200 yards, so the difference is simply tune between the two seasons, and this explains a lot.
But if the definition of a hummer is that it is no more precise than the very best barrel or a rifle tuned with a tuner but it somehow still bucks the wind better...again I would be interested in a ballistic theory or otherwise which supports the concept....its definitely not magic....surely there isn't a law of physics as yet undiscovered that applies to external ballistics.
I watched someone hummer shoot today. Yesterday I took my dasher and paper tested it it had 1/2 '' of vertical at 100yd. I adjusted my RAZ tuner break to where it was one hole. I was hooting at 24'' target with dots on the very bottom. When I got the one hole i put the cross hairs in the top and adjusted it to my one hole. Change over to 1018 yards and it was 8'' low on the gong. Shot 3 more with three hits and put it in the case. Today we had our IBS target shoot.
Today I let my 14 year old Grand Daughter shoot her first hi power gun. and it was at 1018yd.Her first shot was 6'' low on the clay bird and she told me where the bullet hit came up two clicks and she broke 3 in a row. Her first target was 14.5'' with one bullet 6'' out. The next target was 7.7 with one out almost 2''. none of her targets had More then 3'' of vertical If that isn't a hummer then all the Moaning I herd was .I will post her target later. Proud G P Larry
Today I let my 14 year old Grand Daughter shoot her first hi power gun. and it was at 1018yd.Her first shot was 6'' low on the clay bird and she told me where the bullet hit came up two clicks and she broke 3 in a row. Her first target was 14.5'' with one bullet 6'' out. The next target was 7.7 with one out almost 2''. none of her targets had More then 3'' of vertical If that isn't a hummer then all the Moaning I herd was .I will post her target later. Proud G P Larry
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