How many firings before trash can?

[JimSC]

As a long range competition shooter consistent neck tension makes a difference. I annealed for years with a propane annealer with no problems. I purchased an AMP more for the convenience of being to stop and start whenever I wanted without resetting flames and such. It is definitely more consistent and seriously more convenient.

I was thinking the same thing when I had a small batch of thirty .308's I needed to do today. Just take the cover off, screw in the bushing, power up, select the program number and anneal. Will it help me on paper? darn if I know but it won't hurt

 

[bozo699]

I see where you are coming from but for me annealing is not about more case life it is about consistency. Yes I would like my brass to last forever but in reality it won't so while I get life out of it the most important is that consist seating and release. There I said it

Spot on!….
Wayne

 

[dave@aDave]

Neil Jones is adamant that you don't anneal.

 

[fatelvis]

I trust Lou Murdica's advise: either use AMP or don't anneal at all.

That statement is just foolishness. He should be a salesman for AMP. My Annealeeze works PERFECTLY every time.

 

[marchx]

That statement is just foolishness. He should be a salesman for AMP. My Annealeeze works PERFECTLY every time.

I am happy for you.

 

[fatelvis]

I am happy for you.

So am I!
I paid about 1/4 of what an AMP costs, and it does the same job. And it is automated. Eric Cortina, Who I am sure most of you respect his opinion, has found that there is much room for error in annealing, and it isn’t so much of a Precision procedure as we once thought. So why spend so much money on something that doesn’t require extreme precision?

 

[garandman]

I found these helpful:

 

[garandman]

So far:

1. You must anneal every firing
2. You should anneal regularly
3. Only use AMP annealer or don't bother
4. Never anneal. Ever.


This is like religion.

 

[Old Navy]

So far:

1. You must anneal every firing
2. You should anneal regularly
3. Only use AMP annealer or don't bother
4. Never anneal. Ever.


This is like religion.

 

[ChrisNZ]

I do not put alot of stake into E S S D s either. Not when I shoot a 5 shot group all in the same ragged hole measuring less than 1/4 inch with an E S of over 100 FPS on the chrono.

Fine for the short range game but not for 1000yds

 

[darkangel_r2]

I trust Lou Murdica's advise: either use AMP or don't anneal at all. So, bearing this in mind I decided to not anneal my new batch of 6BR Lapua brass. How many firings will the cases take before SDs/ES increase to the point that I will not be able to use this brass to shoot matches?

Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor Brass Performs Great in Tough Field Test « Daily Bulletin

The verdict is in -- Lapua's new 6.5 Creedmoor brass is ultra-tough and very consistent. So sayeth the 6.5 Guys, who recently field-tested the brass, loading it to very stout levels. Even after 20 reloadings, the Lapua 6.5 CM brass held up extremely well.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

If your loads aren't nuclear, your not bumping your shoulders much, throat isn't excessively sloppy, and your die setup isn't overworking your brass you may never see a split neck or loose primer pocket over the life of that barrel.

Brass life typically increases with AI versions since they almost completely halt case growth. So you may want to consider in the future if your going to be a no anneal guy going to 6bra. This will allow you to shoot the high node of 6br at lower pressures as well.

If you are concerned with accuracy or consistency an arbor press with a seating force indicator can let you know if you are getting consistent grip on the bullet with your annealing practices and die setup. Good luck bro.

 

[Straightshooter1]

So far:

1. You must anneal every firing
2. You should anneal regularly
3. Only use AMP annealer or don't bother
4. Never anneal. Ever.


This is like religion.

Fascinating, isn't it . . . how various things can be that way, huh?

Precision reloading to get the most consistent cartridges, is my goal. If my cartridges are as consistent as they can possibly be made and having some idea of the standard deviation that contributes to POI variance, I can focus on other elements involved. In my testing and comparing my properly annealed case to those that are not annealed, I found my annealed cases to be much more consistent in the neck tension as well as much more consistent seating resistance and seating depths. And those differences show up on my chronograph as I've tested these things more than once to verify if what I was seeing was repeatable. It may or may not make a difference on paper or even be of interest depending of the distance and type of shooting being done. But I don't care, as I first want the most consistent cartridges possible and I've found that's just not possible for me without annealing (and BTW: annealing really helps when fire forming the cases).

 

[marchx]

Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor Brass Performs Great in Tough Field Test « Daily Bulletin

The verdict is in -- Lapua's new 6.5 Creedmoor brass is ultra-tough and very consistent. So sayeth the 6.5 Guys, who recently field-tested the brass, loading it to very stout levels. Even after 20 reloadings, the Lapua 6.5 CM brass held up extremely well.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

If your loads aren't nuclear, your not bumping your shoulders much, throat isn't excessively sloppy, and your die setup isn't overworking your brass you may never see a split neck or loose primer pocket over the life of that barrel.

Brass life typically increases with AI versions since they almost completely halt case growth. So you may want to consider in the future if your going to be a no anneal guy going to 6bra. This will allow you to shoot the high node of 6br at lower pressures as well.

If you are concerned with accuracy or consistency an arbor press with a seating force indicator can let you know if you are getting consistent grip on the bullet with your annealing practices and die setup. Good luck bro.

Thank you.

 

[JimSC]

So far:

1. You must anneal every firing
2. You should anneal regularly
3. Only use AMP annealer or don't bother
4. Never anneal. Ever.


This is like religion.

I would not go that far but I would keep all the brass on the same number of firings. That keeps the elastic/plastic deformation of the neck consistent across all cases.

There is a simple test you can run at your bench. Size five cases, number them and measure all five necks OD and write the measurement down. It helps if you can get the measurement down to .0001 resolution. Seat 5 bullets with no primer or powder, the pull the bullets. Remeasure the case neck OD's. Was the spingback full or partial? Are all five the same?

Like I said I am not a NRA high master, you won't wee me standing on the stage at Perry and I am not a long range BR shooter but I firmly believe consistency is the key when it comes to making ammo for precision shooting. Just my opinion of course

 

[INTJ]

So far:

1. You must anneal every firing
2. You should anneal regularly
3. Only use AMP annealer or don't bother
4. Never anneal. Ever.


This is like religion.

Here are some things to always remember:

1. Different shooting disciplines have different requirements. A load that will shoot a perfect score in F-Class may be mediocre for a benchrest rifle. An LR BR shooter can get by with mediocre wind reading skills, but and F-Class shooter cannot. A Silhouette shooter doesn't need a BR or even F-Class level load, but does need to be able to shoot offhand VERY well. A hunter needs a moderately accurate load in a reasonably portable rifle.

2. Most approaches that are arrived at systematically and consistently will work. There are many ways to bake a cake. The only sure way to know anything is to test it for yourself........and then test and continually refine your approach.

3. What method works best is a moving target. Decades ago, neck-only sizing helped accuracy. Then we noticed that after 3 or so firings that the bolt was hard to close and we had to FL size occasionally anyway. Then we all figured out that we actually got more accuracy by FL sizing and bumping the shoulder .002ish and everything was more consistent.

Annealing used be be a dark art, and that may be why Neil Jones said to not do it--he has been around for a VERY long time. Shooters would shoot brass until it started to have issues with spring back then they would anneal. Using a torch and case in a drill, results could vary.

Then better and better annealers started showing up, making annealing fast and correct. We also got more accurate rifles, better bullets, more accurate loading processes, and we got better at tuning rifles. With this higher level of accuracy we noticed that the load needed to change after annealing when we only annealed after every few firings. We only learned that because we shoot much smaller groups than we used to.

That is why guys shooting high accuracy disciplines either anneal after each firing or don't anneal at all. Brass slowly and consistently changes after each firing when it isn't annealed. It will last until it work hardens and quits shooting well, assuming the primer pockets hold, the head doesn't start to separate, and the necks don't split.

Annealing all the time keeps the brass in the same state of hardness for each firing for as long as it lasts. However, if we shoot brass several times then anneal, we introduce a big change in the hardness. This shows up in high accuracy rifles and may require a load adjustment.

4. Not everyone constantly refines their processes. This is a big reason why you see such variance in methods. When I first started hunting and reloading in the 70s, a hunting rifle that would shoot 1 MOA was considered super accurate, and a long range BR rifle that shot a 6.125" group set a world record. Nowadays, a 1 MOA hunting rifle is considered mediocre, as is a 6" group at 1000 yds.

However, if a guy had found a 1 MOA load for his hunting rifle 30 years ago, and had taken dozens of animals at distances to 500 yds; you'd have a hard time convincing him he wasn't doing things well. He probably FL sizes his brass, doesn't anneal, and uses an old RCBS press with standard dies. He may even tell you all this new equipment and methods are a waste......and for him they would be. He obviously went out and DID IT and knows what works for him.

We all have to earn our place by testing this stuff for ourselves, and not be concerned that guys have differing opinions. We have to pick a method and go try it. It really doesn't matter so much WHAT method we choose as it is HOW we do it. Once we start testing a new method, a lot of things become clear.

5. Understand who you are getting input from. If you want to shoot small groups at long range, listen to LR BR shooters. If you want to learn how to read wind, talk to an F-Class shooter. If you want to be better at shooting offhand standing, talk to a Silhouette shooter.

Also, Instead of trying to get people to persuade you, work to understand the overarching principles behind what people are saying. Then go try it......

 

[M-61]

If you are concerned with accuracy

It is the only thing. I really thought that was what shooting was about.

 

[swd]

As a long range competition shooter consistent neck tension makes a difference. I annealed for years with a propane annealer with no problems. I purchased an AMP more for the convenience of being able to stop and start whenever I wanted without resetting flames and such. It is definitely more consistent and seriously more convenient.

This^^^ I used an Annealeze for a few years. It works ok but is a pain to set up every time. I bought an Amp earlier this year and it's annealing for dummies it's so incredibly easy to use and consistency is definitely better than the flame annealer. Next to my Auto Trickler it's the best piece of equipment I've ever bought. Of course the Annealeze and Amp also compare like a Chevette to a Ferrari in price but well worth it if it's in your price range.