How many firings before trash can?
- Thread starter marchx
- Start date
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
following.
I guess once brass is trash it can't hurt to anneal.
ETA: Just talked with Zach @ Peterson. He recommeds annealing after second firing, based on its after that seating pressure increases as brass hardens. Not that brass becomes trash on / after the third firing....
I'm trying to cost justify a $1,400 AMO annealer..... yikes.
I guess once brass is trash it can't hurt to anneal.
ETA: Just talked with Zach @ Peterson. He recommeds annealing after second firing, based on its after that seating pressure increases as brass hardens. Not that brass becomes trash on / after the third firing....
I'm trying to cost justify a $1,400 AMO annealer..... yikes.
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Probably going to depend on the chamber and dies. If you have a large neck and run a small neck size in the die and work the brass a bunch, it's more likely to split sooner.
I had 22-250 cases split within 2-3 firings. But it was a factory chamber that I'd bet had a large neck diameter.
If you have a neck that you just barely resize and aren't moving shoulders much, you can probably get away with more.
Guys have been annealing with things other than AMP for a long time. I'm sure countless records have been set with flame annealed brass. The AMP may be a bit more consistent which at the end of the day is a GOOD thing...I don't see proper flame annealing as being BAD. To each his own though. I still love my bench source. Easy and quick and IMO does what I need it to.
I had 22-250 cases split within 2-3 firings. But it was a factory chamber that I'd bet had a large neck diameter.
If you have a neck that you just barely resize and aren't moving shoulders much, you can probably get away with more.
Guys have been annealing with things other than AMP for a long time. I'm sure countless records have been set with flame annealed brass. The AMP may be a bit more consistent which at the end of the day is a GOOD thing...I don't see proper flame annealing as being BAD. To each his own though. I still love my bench source. Easy and quick and IMO does what I need it to.
Shoot them then you are the expert.
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
No way to tell. Every barrel is different and we all load differently. The less you work the brass, the longer it will last. Hot loads can ruin the primer pockets in one firing. The primer pockets go before the brass wears out. You may have to adjust your neck bushing as the number of firings increase.
I don't concern myself with ES or SD when evaluating case life, I consider bolt lift, brass memory and primers not falling out, case head seperation, split necks.. Stuff like that
No I do not anneal
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
I would not anneal unless I used an Amp or salt bath. Both were consistent in my experience. Lapua 6br brass is readily available so annealing it to extend life may not be a great return. The main thing is that if you do not anneal, keep your brass on the same firing cycle.
No turn neck is easier and guys shoot small groups with no turn. I am testing a no turn Dasher now to see if it is more accurate. I have shot 100 rounds and so far see no significant difference.
No turn neck is easier and guys shoot small groups with no turn. I am testing a no turn Dasher now to see if it is more accurate. I have shot 100 rounds and so far see no significant difference.
Lou isn't the only one who has tested that and come to that conclusion on annealing. Many of us have tested that. I found no difference in accuracy between annealed and non annealed cases in a 6 BRA LR BR rifle.
As to how long your unannealed cases will last, like others have said, it depends. In some rifles you will lose the primer pocket, and annealing doesn't make any difference with that. Sometimes your neck tension goes to pot. All unannealed cases will eventually lose their ability to spring back.
I would guess with a quality chamber, quality brass, and loads that are not hot, you would have good accuracy between 7-12 firings.
ES or SD may or may not change, but ES/SD are not the criteria to use, group size is the criteria to use.
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Working 6 Dasher right now.
Fired case measures 1.703. Found I've got 2 size down to 1.696 to close bolt easily. I tried to bump the shoulder down It's only 1 or 2 thou but bolt closure was hard.
Fired neck is 0.269. Neck bushing down to 0.266 ... gonna try all that and see what I get.
Fired case measures 1.703. Found I've got 2 size down to 1.696 to close bolt easily. I tried to bump the shoulder down It's only 1 or 2 thou but bolt closure was hard.
Fired neck is 0.269. Neck bushing down to 0.266 ... gonna try all that and see what I get.
Most people do not realize that brass springs are made from some of the hardest brass, old leaf springs are prized by blade makers for it's toughness. If you compare the modulus of elasticity for annealed brass ( OSO25, OSO50, and OSO70) brass to extra hard brass(H06) you will find they are exactly the same. That is because the elasticity of a metal is determined by the attraction and repulsion of the protons and electrons at the molecular level, not the hardness of the brass
I think the problem arises when you have cases with varying numbers of firings in a group of 20 rounds. In the real world I have found that annealing every firing seems to help eliminate those odd ball high/low flyers and give tighter groups. No double blind tests or anything, but I did do a few home grown range tests comparing annealed to non annealed and that is what it seemed to indicate. If nothing else it gives me a bit more confidence. At the reloading bench I found that annealing after every firing makes for more consistent sizing. I took several pieces of brass with different numbers of firings, sized them, seated bullets, then pulled the bullets and checked the necks for "spring back". I found the annealed cases gave me a consistent spring back while cases that had been fired several times gave me varying results. Again there were no scientific double blind tests but I saw enough of a difference to get me to start annealing every firing. It's easier than trying to keep all cases on the exact number of firings. Call me lazy
As far as the AMP goes I just broke down and bought one to replace my Annealeeze. I am slowly upgrading all of my reloading equipment with better quality gear. The Annealeeze worked, the AMP is easier, faster and simpler to set up and operate and adjust. Just my opinion on that of course.
I would suggest you do a few sizing tests like I did. You might try the old plumbers torch and cordless drill annealing technique and compare the annealed vs non annealed and see what results you get before spending the money
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NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
If they're all going in the same hole, who cares how fast they get there.
Got some 6 BR brass that has been flame annealed a few times. Maybe 20 to 25 resizes and still going strong. You anneal when the spring back isn't quite right. It's a feel thing.
I'm in agreement with you. I thought I was the last guy left not to anneal. What I shoot is easy on brass considered to others (6BR. 30BR, 6.5BR, 222). Some of my 222 have at least 25 reloads on them. The BR's? Well they are much newer (10 years or so) but they look as if they'll match that.
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To me, the main reason to anneal is when we have brass that is hard to find or we have a lot of time invested in match brass prep. An AMP make it a no brainer. I can anneal 100 cases to the exact correct temp in 30 minutes, give or take.
It is important to anneal every time if we are going to anneal. If we we anneal every few firings--as was popular before the AMP, we will need to check the load after annealing.
There is a good chance that it's the base of the case causing that issue. You might need a tighter custom die or a small base die.
JMayo
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm going on near 30 firings, 6mmbra.
I'll tell you next season at 600.
Bench source annealer after every firing.
I don't over work sholders they fit precise. Primer pockets still holding good. Flash holes kinda getting ragged.
Using a ultrasonic cleaner to get 380 of them cleaned, weighed. Sorted for next season
I'll tell you next season at 600.
Bench source annealer after every firing.
I don't over work sholders they fit precise. Primer pockets still holding good. Flash holes kinda getting ragged.
Using a ultrasonic cleaner to get 380 of them cleaned, weighed. Sorted for next season
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Even tho when I sized down to 1.696" , bolt closes easily? Seems more like the shoulder than the base.... no?
Ok, let's talk small groups. I think that it's crucial to have the same velocity in order to get small groups. If I don't anneal and keep track of number of firings within a batch of cases, how would it affect my match results if I take to the match 20 rounds loaded with 5 times fired unannealed brass?
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