How have E-targets changed wind calling

[Alex Wheeler]

Are there any rules that pertain to delays between shots? Either international or domestic? If not, the first step would be to have the NRA make a decision. One way or another for matches to mean anything at all they must be run under a consistent format. Otherwise you cant compare it to any other matches. Your shooting a "just for fun" match at that point.

When it comes to match rules, I have some opinions. Records are one thing, for a record to be set requires a lot of things to come together. It is not a normal occasion and cant happen at most matches. But the biggest thing to remember is, no matter what the rules are, we all have to shoot the match under the same rules and the cream will always rise to the top. If you love your sport you will still show up and shoot even if something goes a way you dont like. One thing I hate to hear is, "I'll quit and go home" when something changes.

 

[Ned Ludd]

And just shoot it at a big black blob instead of at an official F Class target. Call it Fast Big Black Blob class?

Now that is funny right there...FB3-Class, I like it!

 

[dcali]

I have searched the forum and have not found an answer to this question.

How did the new E-targets that where used at the nationals at Lodi change how competitors called wind? I know that they still had mirage and flags to use as wind indicators, but how did not seeing spotters on the targets of other competitors change the game?

Do you think it mixed up the top shooters a little and ones that are used to using the spotters of those that are behind the wind as there main indicator didnt do as well?

Does anyone actually make wind calls based on someone else's spotters? That sounds like a recipe for disaster. First, because it's harder to do than it sounds (people don't all shoot at the same time), and second because you have no idea what the knuckleheads next to you are doing. I can't see e targets changing wind reading much. I can see a lack of delay changing the sport, and I'm 100% against that - I will probably quit F class and concentrate on sling shooting if that ever happens. Benchrest already has the rapid-fire-equipment-race game covered, and they do it well, but it's not high power rifle.

 

[Erud]

Does anyone actually make wind calls based on someone else's spotters?

Heck yeah I do. Not all the time, but it's a valuable tool to have in the toolbox. I can't tell you how many times I have been saved by someone else's 9.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

That's a great question, damoncali. Speaking for myself, the short answer is no, I don't make wind calls based on someone else's spotters.

The long answer is, I am aware of the neighboring targets and the results I see can factor into my decisions. If you read my earlier post talking about the very long pause at the 2015 Nationals, you get an idea of what I'm talking about. I have been known to hold up and wait when the shooter next to me gets a 9 or worse due to wind when the prior shots were 10s and Xs. Doesn't happen all the time or even most of the time, but if I see it and it's not something I expected from my interpretation of the conditions, it's a data point in a handful of other data points. The vast majority of the time, I will just push on and discover that the shooter probably just baubled, because my shot was not affected. But I considered it in my decision and it also depends on who is shooting on that target.

Even more rarely, I may be spurred to restart shooting when the shooters beside me are plowing on with great results in what I think are not the conditions in which I want to shoot. It makes me question my decision to hold up. Again, data points.

But the short answer is the more correct one, as there is no way I would base my wind calls on someone else's spotters and for and for all the reasons you stated and several more besides.

 

[XTR]

Looking in the spotter, see a pickup. I asked myself "is that one more or should I hold two?" *BANG* Shooter to my right, who I know to be a good shooter, wait for it..... 9 left.... hold 2.... X.

Yep, been there done that.

oh, and I was coaching in that teams match Dennys refers to above. I think that one shot in the middle of the wait was a 7, and I'm not so sure I didn't call it.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Be careful revealing too much, Wade. So people will say you're a lousy wind reader or worse.

 

[XTR]

I'm totally in favor of the NRA coming out with a rule that says:

## In any match where E targets are used that there be no delay in reporting of scores, all matches under this rule must be pair fired.

Completely in agreement with that rule

Just think how much faster that would be Finish by 1:30.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I think I'll pass on the pair-firing rule as well. However, as I've mentioned before, there are little computer games that mimic the more "snipery" types of shooting. I have no doubt one of those could be chosen and set up to hold competitions online. You'd never even have to leave your house. Just think of all the money we'd save, and the whole match could be over in less than 30 minutes without even having to get dressed and go outside.

Back to reality....being able to see and observe targets on either side of you is just another part of the game. I wouldn't call it "wind reading" by any stretch of the imagination. But when you observe as many targets as you can see and they all are showing 9s and 8s in the same general area, it might be a good indication to keep your booger hook off the trigger for a few moment. This technique goes back a long way and has its risks, i.e. you don't know the hold of any other shooter. However, seeing a bunch of targets up and down the line, all with similar misses, is usually a good indicator of what the wind just did.

As several have noted, people (including myself) that have to use reading glasses are going to be at a distinct disadvantage using a tablet or similar device with e-targets. Is it a realistic expectation for shooters in that category to put on/take off their reading glasses for every shot? It's great to be able to say that folks whom might have physical issues pulling targets due to age or other reasons can now shoot because of the use of e-targets. I totally get that and it's a great idea, right up until the point you realize there are now also going to be a certain number of folks on the line that are going to have real difficulty seeing anything on the little tablet screen.

This is merely one example of how the use of electronic targets is changing the way we shoot F-Class. There are plenty of others. As I stated before, I don't think the change can be stopped, but at least it can considered in a very careful and thoughtful manner first, so as to preserve at least the spirit of what we now know as F-Class. I have no doubt that e-targets are the wave of the future, but it seems like the goal should be to make the use of the e-scoring system as minimally intrusive to the shooting process as possible.

 

[Bindi2]

Reading glasses are being mention as a problem, why . I use glasses multi focal with a adjustable bridge for every day use and shooting. Several months ago I had a new fixed focal set made for shooting, long range for the left eye and short range for the right eye still with the adjustable bridge. I can now watch the 1000yd flags, still read my charts, screen and see through my scope without issues.

 

[Dos XX]

Do you have big black blobs on your E Targets? In Australia, It's mandatory that they have standard ring faces on them - and yes, they generally last well when they're not pasted over.

My tongue in cheek comment was in reference to a particular range in the US that was advertising "F Class" matches using E targets. They were shooting at a round black dot, no rings, no F Class / High Power target face. They were not using a delay. Both of these things are in contradiction to US F Class rules.

There was some grumbling in one match where the range was accused of using the wrong size black dot at a particular distance. I asked the question, " what rule book did you use to dictate what size round black blob to shoot at what distance in an F class match." Not everyone involved saw the humor in it.

Sorry if it was too much of inside joke for this thread. I didn't mean to derail it.

 

[Bindi2]

My tongue in cheek comment was in reference to a particular range in the US that was advertising "F Class" matches using E targets. They were shooting at a round black dot, no rings, no F Class / High Power target face. They were not using a delay. Both of these things are in contradiction to US F Class rules.

There was some grumbling in one match where the range was accused of using the wrong size black dot at a particular distance. I asked the question, " what rule book did you use to dictate what size round black blob to shoot at what distance in an F class match." Not everyone involved saw the humor in it.

Sorry if it was too much of inside joke for this thread. I didn't mean to derail it.

Actually it is what happened here at first until somebody insisted the rules be followed.
Sling shooters only need a B B B or as we say to them the barn door we pick the lock.

 

[6BRinNZ]

As several have noted, people (including myself) that have to use reading glasses are going to be at a distinct disadvantage using a tablet or similar device with e-targets. Is it a realistic expectation for shooters in that category to put on/take off their reading glasses for every shot? It's great to be able to say that folks whom might have physical issues pulling targets due to age or other reasons can now shoot because of the use of e-targets. I totally get that and it's a great idea, right up until the point you realize there are now also going to be a certain number of folks on the line that are going to have real difficulty seeing anything on the little tablet screen.

This is merely one example of how the use of electronic targets is changing the way we shoot F-Class. There are plenty of others. As I stated before, I don't think the change can be stopped, but at least it can considered in a very careful and thoughtful manner first, so as to preserve at least the spirit of what we now know as F-Class. I have no doubt that e-targets are the wave of the future, but it seems like the goal should be to make the use of the e-scoring system as minimally intrusive to the shooting process as possible.

It isn't an issue if you use reading glasses - in fact if you are a dialer rather than a holder its harder to see the calibrations on the windage knobs...I am referencing a 10" tablet...which can be zoomed in on at the start of the shoot if wanted as well.

I agree with the rest of what you have stated, I categorically don't agree with the adding a delay concerns that Bindi has and NZ has been on ETs for a few years now.

 

[Elwood]

Does anyone actually make wind calls based on someone else's spotters? That sounds like a recipe for disaster. First, because it's harder to do than it sounds (people don't all shoot at the same time), and second because you have no idea what the knuckleheads next to you are doing. I can't see e targets changing wind reading much. I can see a lack of delay changing the sport, and I'm 100% against that - I will probably quit F class and concentrate on sling shooting if that ever happens. Benchrest already has the rapid-fire-equipment-race game covered, and they do it well, but it's not high power rifle.

When the shooter next to you is hitting X after X after X and then hits a 7 you'd be mad not to take notice.

 

[dcali]

When the shooter next to you is hitting X after X after X and then hits a 7 you'd be mad not to take notice.

I don't know. Chasing my own spotter is an exercise in frustration (I don't do this, but I've tried and failed at it), let alone chasing someone else's. I never even look at other people's targets.

 

[Erud]

I don't know. Chasing my own spotter is an exercise in frustration (I don't do this, but I've tried and failed at it), let alone chasing someone else's. I never even look at other people's targets.

Out of curiosity, what level of shooter are you?

 

[dcali]

Out of curiosity, what level of shooter are you?

Good, but not great. Technically a master, but most of my scores have been high master for the last year (would be a high master if my league scores were submitted every match). Came in 3rd overall at the Nebaraska state championship last year. This is shooting TR at 600.

 

[Erud]

Ok, that's good info. I'd say that most top-level shooters are aware of what is going on on their neighbors' targets, at least most of the time. Every string/match is different, but as noted above, if a known good shooter gets caught out one side unexpectedly, it is always worth taking a second look at what's going on. Many factors need to be considered when doing this, and you can never be 100% sure how another shooter broke a particular shot. A lower-level shooter won't usually be able to give you a lot of useful info, and a top-level shooter may be seeing things and making corrections that you aren't even aware of. That said, you can get a very good idea of what to expect from certain shooters. If you are solid in your wind-reading and confident in your calls, it's a useful tool to cross-reference against what is happening to others. Just another piece in the larger puzzle.

 

[dcali]

Yeah, I won't say not to do it. Whatever works for people is what they ought to do. I just haven't been able to make it work. Maybe because I don't do it rigorously. Every time I try, I check out a few targets, see half of them down, the other half all over the place, I can't remember who's on what target, and by the time I realize that this isn't helping, the information is too old to be useful and I go back to looking at flags.

I was just curious how many people really rely on the technique.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I would not advocate looking at other shooter's targets up and down the line through the spotting scope for every single shot, but it can be a very useful tool when you see something you don't like in behavior of the flags or mirage.