How have E-targets changed wind calling

[Scott Harris]

Yeah, I won't say not to do it. ...
I was just curious how many people really rely on the technique.

I think other peoples' targets are a great wind indicator and use it as often as possible. Just like many things, there's a right way and a wrong way to use other targets for wind reading. My suggestions for you:
1. Look at targets as a group, do NOT focus on any one adjacent target regardless of the quality of the shooter. That will get you in trouble because you don't know how good an individual is or what adjustments the better shooter is making. Instead, observe patterns....several out the left, everyone having elevation, etc.
2. Form opinions on what the wind is doing based on "primary" indicators, flags, mirage, your bullet placement combined with your call....then observe other targets to support or contradict your opinion. For example, you see the flags picking up and pause to watch a few other targets. Sure enough, you see several targets leaking out the side you anticipate. Now, you can decide to wait it out or make an adjustment. Either way, watching adjacent targets AS A GROUP, was hugely beneficial. To enable this technique, a 20-30X wide angle spotter is very useful

Hope that helps.

PS. regarding your comment about getting confused, practice makes perfect. In the beginning, focus on one wind indicator. As you get better, you'll be able to keep track of multiple flags, mirage, other peoples targets, and your own. Of course, to do this, you have to dispense with all the time wasters that a lot of people engage in during a string: fondling their ammo & brass, looking at their rifle while reloading, looking at the ground, simply not paying attention, etc. Watch a shooter during a string and measure the percentage of the time they spend actually observing wind indicators. It will surprise you and give you a big hint on how to get better. Also, watching the wind is good when it is challenging, but this slows you down. Obviously, shooting fast and chasing your spotter works great in mild or steady conditions. Shooting consistently well involves picking the best approach for current conditions.

 

[spclark]

Also, watching the wind is good when it is challenging, but this slows you down.

Whoo, now there's a couple understatements!

 

[XTR]

I will tell you for absolute certainty, when I am about to shoot and I hear "F(*&" or "$#!+" on the line I hold and look to see where it went. If you don't, you should try it.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I know that some shooters will dial in their windage before starting sightsers. . Then hold mid 8 ring while shooting their sightseers, just to mess with anyone that watch for their spotter.

That's terrible! Shame on those guys!!!

 

[ngb1787]

That's terrible! Shame on those guys!!!

That's terrible! Shame on those guys!!!

 

[dannyjbiggs]

That's terrible! Shame on those guys!!!

Yeah...that's just as bad as those wind coaches that have their shooter put some amount (?) of windage on the riflescope and then make loud wind calls with that windage included. Absolutely shameful.

Dan

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Yeah...that's just as bad as those wind coaches that have their shooter put some amount (?) of windage on the riflescope and then make loud wind calls with that windage included. Absolutely shameful.

Dan

Yup, shameful, almost as bad as shooting your sightseers!

We do need headsets, don't we?

Deaf shooters and silly coaches make for major fun!

Windage? Where do you adjust that?

 

[Earl338]

The question of the 7 sec delay is answered for in the 2016 NRA rule book it states that a 7 sec devay will be used if practicable. [rule 10.17.1 g] That means that if it is possable to program a 7sec. delay in it is to be used. The reason for the word pracitacable is so not all the early targets of electronic nature had a program that that could be done.Givin some years in the fiture i would like to take that word practicable revoved and it would then become a requirment.
Ear

 

[Dos XX]

If someone sets a record without a 7 second delay, will it have an asterisk beside it?

 

[JohnKielly]

If someone sets a record with a fast marker, does it have an asterisk beside it?

 

[Dos XX]

No. However, there are no 0 second target pullers.

 

[243Mendoza]

If someone sets a record without a 7 second delay, will it have an asterisk beside it?

Good question. I would think that this question should be answered by the NRA. And having a 7 second delay is a significant delay which amounts to over 2 minutes for a 20-shot string.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Good question. I would think that this question should be answered by the NRA. And having a 7 second delay is a significant delay which amounts to over 2 minutes for a 20-shot string.

How is this different than with manually pulled targets? I rarely experience 7 second service and service up and down the line is highly inconsistent. It's even inconsistent on my own target, between relays depending on who is pulling.

A 7 second delay both maintains the spirit of slow fire, high power competition and levels the playing field at the same time.

IMO, a "record" shot on a target without a delay should not be considered. It seems to me that it's no different than shooting on an unofficial target, which would also not be eligible for a record. But, like you say, the NRA will have to answer the question at some point.

 

[Ned Ludd]

IMO - any record shot using e-targets should be distinguished from records set the old-fashioned way using manual targets, whether with or without a time delay. If shooting with e-targets was absolutely the exact same as manual targets, then there would be no reason at all to switch over to using them. The folks that are enthusiastic about the use of e-targets feel that way for a reason; more specifically, shorter match times, not having to pull targets, etc. That alone provides support for the argument that the two systems are different, even if only in small ways. If the two systems are different, then records set using the two different systems in all fairness cannot be directly compared.

 

[Cowtownup]

What happens when the screen goes blank in the middle of a string of fire? Electronics can and will malfunction.

Of course, target pullers can have issues as well, but I would think a back up puller can be in place quickly...

 

[Immike]

Mr Taylor has a strong argument with match time frame. Another would be the new changes to the system yet to come. It's a good equalizer for that match at that time on that location so far. For a record to be broken, potential has to meet opportunity, the odds of that are changed somewhat with a fast match. Good discussion gentlemen

 

[Heman]

Shooting our second season on e-targets I will say this.
1. Not seeing other spotters on adjacent targets isn't that big of a deal. Its like shooting smallbore. Plus at a match if you don't have anyone good to dope off of it doesn't do you much good. We run block infiltration so unless you are on relay 1 right at the beginning there is no telling who is on the other targets. You do have the feature where you can pop up the stuff on the bottom and see the impacts but I've never used it.

2. As far as shooting fast the good shooters aren't going to do that if the winds are squirley . I watched this past weekend during our course match and the mid-range match people try and shoot fast and chase the spotters and they dropped points. They might hammer a couple X's but then the wind picked up and blew them out into the 9 or 8 ring. No matter what system nothing beats reading the flags/mirage and adjusting.

3. Personally I don't see the point or need for a 7 second delay as a sling shooter, there is no way you'll get shots off in 7 seconds. F-Class guys again the guys that are going to machine gun them down aren't going to be setting national records.

4. As far as records it takes 1.) a good shooter and 2.) conditions that allow it. If I take an EX in either sling or F-class put him on an E-target he isn't going to shoot a national record just because he gets instant feedback. Shooter mechanics still take precedence. Same reason why up until last year the sling 1000yd irons record was shot 3 times once with a 6.5x284 and 2 other times by palma rifles, Indian not the arrow. If a record falls on an e-target it falls, I find the majority of people complaining about records falling on etargets don't have to worry about it anyways. That scoring target on an etarget doesn't change. Paper targets we've all seen how you can get them wet and stretch them out or repair centers that don't match up. Looking at our club records of the 26 sling mid-range records only 3 have been broken on e-targets. Of the 29 long range prone records 3 have been broken since we started using etargets. F-Class of the 19 mid-range 11 have been set since going to SMT's. Of the 16 Long Range records 9 have been set on SMT's. HOWEVER this isn't due to the SMT's. In the past two years our F-Class shooters (Mike Plunkett , Jeff Hopkins, Dwayne Draggoo, and Kevin Hill to name a few) have gotten very very good in the scores their posting in other matches. These guys aren't machine gunning the rounds down range and we are not using a 7 second delay as the G2 system doesn't support it. If SMT's enabled records to be broken easier you would see it clear across the board in sling and f-class.

5. As far as the match speed with etargets, a shooting match is a shooting match. It's not a USN Seal evolution where somehow not pulling pits and being out in the heat for 8 hours makes a score less of an accomplishment. What I have noticed is the etargets have made our matches more competitive. The older shooters can shoot better because they don't get physically tired. I personally like that. I know that when I'm shooting and if I win, I didn't win because the 65 year old guy fagged out during the 3x1000 because he had to pull targets. I win because I shot better than him and he was focused on shooting.

6. If your screen malfunctions or gets a red "X" you stop shooting till you regain connection. If its more than 2 minutes then you get a sighter and you go. No different than being put into a check fire at a range because some care decied to ignore the gates and drive through or boats in the impact area. On manual targets if you don't have a back stop like our range pullers didn't hear a pull you call for mark, maybe have to do it a couple times till it gets sent down on raido. Then may be awhile till the target goes down. E-targets you don't have that. Pulled targets aren't anymore foolproof than e-targets.

7. On electronic targets everybody gets the same pit service. You can really get screwed over on pulled targets if you have some old codgers pulling your target that can't hear and can barely pull. Etargets its all the same, takes away an argument many people like to use, "Well if I had faster pit service I coulda......" Pit service is also based on how a guy shoots if he's shooting 10's and X's he gets better pit service than the guy all over as you know where the shots are. With e-targets both get the same.

 

[Dos XX]

F-Class guys again the guys that are going to machine gun them down aren't going to be setting national records.

I don't agree with this. F Open shooters especially can run them off very quickly in a condition, very similar to a bench rest shooter.

 

[JohnKielly]

I've chosen not to comment up to now about this conundrum, but here is my perspective as the chief range officer responsible for running two Australian state Queens (championships), both with ETs in 2016.

• Australia chose not to require the incorporation of a time delay to date.
  
• I have observed occasion when shooters "machine gunned" but this occurred only at short distances (less than 600 yards) and very few shooters. It only occurred when the shooter was prepared to risk not bothering to check his screen.
  
• Most used the prompter scoring time to dope out the conditions, compensating for the lack of traditional feedback.
• There are a greater number of crossfires occurring because both scope & iron sighted shooters are obliged to break from their traditional position to inspect the screen & thus disturb their alignment.
• This is exacerbated by an individual's target no longer being identifiable by a unique spotter.
• Overall (string) shooting times are not exceptionally shorter than with paper targets, not to the extent that was prophesied prior to their use. This might change as shooters become more familiar with the technology.
• I've operated with both Kongsberg & Hexta targetry.

 

[Ned Ludd]

3. Personally I don't see the point or need for a 7 second delay as a sling shooter, there is no way you'll get shots off in 7 seconds. F-Class guys again the guys that are going to machine gun them down aren't going to be setting national records.

Well, I guess someone better break the bad news to David Gosnell .