Hornady changing up ??

[Rob01]

A lesson from my first boss (eons ago now)..... If they don't work in across the spectrum of barrels, they are not meeting their intended purpose.

They have worked in every Bartlein, Kreiger, Osprey, Proof, Rock and Lothar Walther barrel I have used them in so they are meeting my intended purpose.

 

[FrankG]

I think what the Army is looking for and a competitive shooter are looking for are vastly different. If it says anything it might be that most of them do pretty well which is probably what they are looking for. FrankG thanks for your input to this forum, I always look forward to it, you get to see a lot and it's great you share with us.

It was strictly accuracy testing of the bullets. We made barrels in different twist rates as well. That info was then given to big army for them to pick what they wanted for special forces.

So yes what a competitive shooter wants vs an army need.. I get it but the testing was done at a test facility to see which bullets performed the best. How the bullets shot accuracy along with bullet drift and drop etc...

 

[FrankG]

Yellow boxes aren’t going poof from the same barrels!!

Ummm....I've seen yellow box bullets blow up to others as well as to me personally it's happened to. First I thought it was the barrel and that it had a lot of rounds on it so I should pull it. So I put a new barrel on the gun. Went to a match with like 25 rounds on that barrel.

Round number 12 doesn't make it to the target at a 1k. 187-9X's with that scored miss at a 1k yards.

Tried them in a different rifle... yep blew up! It was the lot of bullets that I had and I proved it.

By the way the first barrel that blew them up... I put that barrel back on the gun and shot green box bullets.... still hammered with no bullet failures.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[kyreloader]

Ummm....I've seen yellow box bullets blow up to others as well as to me personally it's happened to. First I thought it was the barrel and that it had a lot of rounds on it so I should pull it. So I put a new barrel on the gun. Went to a match with like 25 rounds on that barrel.

Round number 12 doesn't make it to the target at a 1k. 187-9X's with that scored miss at a 1k yards.

Tried them in a different rifle... yep blew up! It was the lot of bullets that I had and I proved it.

By the way the first barrel that blew them up... I put that barrel back on the gun and shot green box bullets.... still hammered with no bullet failures.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

My argument was that it was not a barrel issue. Hornady bullets did not make it to the target while Berger’s did.
Berger found out their bullets were not making it to the target, they changed their design and thickened up their “target” line of bullets. I can’t say the same thing about Hornady.
You simply can’t argue with the number of reports of Hornady match bullets not making it to the target in the Fclass arena.

 

[FrankG]

Understood and what I was saying is that it wasn't a barrel issue with me. It was a bullet issue with Berger.

I have yet to lose a Hornady ELDM and when army did testing there wasn't a single case reported about any of them blowing up.

Also we've been given bullets from Hornady to us for testing as well. When someone has complained about bullets failing and they couldn't get them to fail and we couldn't get them to fail.

I won't name names.... but not to long ago a F class shooter was complaining about his Hornady bullets blowing up. Hornady called me and we talked about stuff.... then out of the clear blue I brought up a customers name and told Hornady I wouldn't replace barrels for him anymore because he was wrecking the barrels from bad cleaning habits and I told him he had to change what he was doing and he argued with me.... so fast forward about 6 months and guess who the bullet customer was.... same guy.

I will say bullets can blow up because the bullet can be / have an issue but you also have to take it with a grain of salt when you hear it. Guys damaging the barrels from cleaning... is another factor that will cause bullet failures.

 

[kyreloader]

Frank,

Were the bullets from Berger that you alluded to losing, hunting or target variety? Pre or post change to the creation of the target variety?

Was your Hornady bullet testing similar to what is needed to replicate an Fclass competition?

What is your explanation for the gluttony of reports of Fclass shooters losing Hornady bullets and the paucity of reports of losing Berger target bullets?

 

[jackieschmidt]

Just curious, what RPM is being generated for these bullets to come apart?

 

[FrankG]

Frank,

Were the bullets from Berger that you alluded to losing, hunting or target variety? Pre or post change to the creation of the target variety?

Was your Hornady bullet testing similar to what is needed to replicate an Fclass competition?

What is your explanation for the gluttony of reports of Fclass shooters losing Hornady bullets and the paucity of reports of losing Berger target bullets?

My Bergers where match VLD bullets. Not alluded to losing. Berger did replace them as well.

It wasn't just testing of Hornady bullets. One of the test facilities for the Army did the testing. They shot Hornady's, Bergers and Sierras. 23 or 26 different bullets they shot.

Again read my one post. You have to take some of the reports with a grain of salt. When a shooter is wrecking the barrel from improper cleaning and then makes claims the bullets are failing and the bullets are bad.... it might not be the bullets fault. This is just one reason and you or I might not be getting the whole picture.

Barrel could be an issue from either when it was made and or the shooter has damaged the barrel.

How the shooter is cleaning the barrel and or from never cleaning the barrel is another reason. I had two different guys earlier last year....both shooting 6.5PRC. Both claiming accuracy issues and or bullet issues. The one guy shot 300 rounds on the barrel and never cleaned it once. He thought the barrel quit shooting prematurely. Sent me pictures. I said no the barrel isn't done.... that's carbon fouling/build up. How are you cleaning it and with what? Then I was told it hadn't been cleaned at all. I told him how to clean it and goes to the next long range match that weekend. Guess what... gun shot great and he won all the 1200 and 1400 yd portions of the match.

Velocity and bullet RPM are another factor.

How the barrel was made is another factor.

Barrel has too many rounds on it and should've been replaced. Some shooters simply push the barrel to long. The throat starts getting too rough which beats the bullet up more...and issues happen. I've seen guys at F class matches and at Hi power matches trying to clean they're gun in between relays to try and get thru the match. If it's that bad...get the barrel off the gun!

Yes bullets themselves can be a problem also but it's only one factor.

I won't name the bullet maker but one place is blowing up bullets.... but a couple of other places (manufacturer) with the same brand of bullets are not blowing any up and or having any accuracy issues. This has been going on now for a few months. So why is one place having a problem and the other two places not having a problem? The one place is doing something wrong/differently that is causing the problem. No I'm not at liberty to say whom, bullet maker, type of bullet, ammo etc...

 

[FrankG]

Check out the thread on 8.6BO gas gun barrels on Snipershide. Guys are either blowing up bullets and or accuracy issues.

Pic's where posted of the barrel maker that was doing drop in AR barrels for the 8.6BO. Button barrels with a 1-3 twist are the biggest issues. The saami spec. for that is 1-5 twist. All of my twist calcs even at subsonic velocities with the real heavy bullets. I don't see a need for any twist faster than 1-7. I even talked to Hornady about it as they are the ones that submitted it to saami. They gave me the same reply back... they don't know why guys are wanting 1-3 twist barrels. No need for it but to me it's a different ammo/gun maker pushing the thought that the faster twist will improve bullet impact performance to generate sales. The button rifling process with that fast twist... all sorts of tearing/damages to the rifling lands. Guess what that causes?

Also....

As you approach upper 200k (say past 275krpm) on bullet rpm and we draw a hard line in the sand at 300k rpm. Bullet failure is going to happen. You are on borrowed time.

2950fps velocity out of a 7 twist barrel. Your at 303k rpm on the bullet.

2900fps out of a 8 twist barrel your at 261k.

3100fps out of a 8 twist barrel your at 279k.

Now factor in barrel wear and cleaning etc...

I've got a 6.75 twist barrel on one of my 6.5CM guns. Why? I did it in anticipating the then new 150SMK as we thought the a 1-7 twist wasn't going to be fast enough.

I'm running 150gr type bullets at 2700fps out of a 23" barrel. That lands me at 288k rpm. I've shot box Hornady 140 match ammo with no issues. I've shot 153 Atips and 150SMK with no issues.

I'm running 135 Atips at 2800fps which is giving me almost 299k rpm. No issues.

But I will say this... with my 6.5CM and that 6.75 twist barrel. I'm pushing it and I'm on borrowed time. If and when I blow up a Hornady or Sierra bullet... it's not the bullets fault.