Hornady 225gr ELDM's

[No i deer]

Hi all.
I will ask first this time..
Do or can the 30 cal 225gr ELDM bullets blow up like the 7mm 180gr ELDM's can..
I wasnt aware of this until I bought 15 boxes and had 2 not make the 300yds target...
Cheers N I D.

 

[FrankG]

I have not had any fail/blow up and I’ve shot them out to a 1k yards and at my home range which goes out to 430 yards. Same with 140’s and 147’s.

There are other things that can cause bullet failure besides the bullet.

What condition is the bore of your barrel? Even if new there could be something wrong with it? Rough chamber/throat, damage to the rifling either from manufacture or from cleaning, damage or burr on the crown as well.

How many rounds are on the barrel? As you get more rounds on the barrel the throat will get rougher and can beat the bullet up more as well.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[moondog]

I've not experienced that either.

 

[Earnhardt]

Caliber/cartridge, velocity, barrel twist?

 

[No i deer]

I have not had any fail/blow up and I’ve shot them out to a 1k yards and at my home range which goes out to 430 yards. Same with 140’s and 147’s.

There are other things that can cause bullet failure besides the bullet.

What condition is the bore of your barrel? Even if new there could be something wrong with it? Rough chamber/throat, damage to the rifling either from manufacture or from cleaning, damage or burr on the crown as well.

How many rounds are on the barrel? As you get more rounds on the barrel the throat will get rougher and can beat the bullet up more as well.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

It's a 1 in 9 bartlein and it's seen 1570 shots and i was told after 1450 shots there was only the tinniest amount of firecracking and used mainly hybrids and scenars that never failed to make the target..
It's the 225 grainers I'm intrested in now...

 

[FrankG]

Unless you have a problem or until you do I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

What's the barrel chambered in?

 

[No i deer]

Unless you have a problem or until you do I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

What's the barrel chambered in?

7mm saum

 

[FrankG]

Your original post was for 30cal.

How many rounds on the 7SAUM?

 

[No i deer]

Your original post was for 30cal.

How many rounds on the 7SAUM?

Yes it was but the thread side tracked.
One of the best gunsmiths in the country borescoped my 7 saum and was surprised how little firecracking it had and said it could be good for another 500 shots at top accuracy.
It's only seen a little of N165 and the rest H1000.. the coolest burning powders..

 

[FrankG]

If you are running it as a F Class gun I would say the barrel is toast or on it's last legs and should've been probably before that round count.

If the throat looks good like your gunsmith says then you should get more out of it.

If you really are pushing 1600 rounds on it and you start losing bullets in the near future....then I say no bullet problem. It's going to be that the barrel is starting to tell you it's done.

 

[No i deer]

Yes an f open rifle.
It shot a fraction over 0.5 minutes at 300yds in the twichy wind and the point I dropped was shooter error over adjusting down.
On the next detail at 600yds it shot sub 1/4 elevation apart from 1 shot..
All bullets made the target this time..!!
A fellow f open shooter at this years British championships shot a record 100/14 at 1000yds with his 7mm saum and his barrel had done 1500 shots..!!
My other 1 in8.25 barrel has done 500 shots..
I'm intending on wearing my 1 in 9T out first, once I start getting fliers I will scrap it..!!

 

[Mr.Knowit all]

Caliber/cartridge, velocity, barrel twist?

I agree that all these are extremely important. If memory serves correct a .308 with a 12t at 2600 fps is approx. 175,000 RPM So if your pushing a at 225 or any other round faster and with a faster twist your RPMs are going to go way up and test the jacket of the bullet. The max RPMs SHOULD be posted on the projectile boxes IMO.

 

[steve123]

I had some problems with the 225's but my 30-375R barrel had 1600 rounds through it.

I made a lot of hits at ELR distances on day one, didn't clean the barrel, and on day two the vertical was horrible.

Got back home and cleaned the barrel really thoroughly and the rifle shot good again with the same load and box of 225's???

 

[FrankG]

I agree that all these are extremely important. If memory serves correct a .308 with a 12t at 2600 fps is approx. 175,000 RPM So if your pushing a at 225 or any other round faster and with a faster twist your RPMs are going to go way up and test the jacket of the bullet. The max RPMs SHOULD be posted on the projectile boxes IMO.

I agree to an extent on rpm on the boxes.....but.....read the next post....

 

[FrankG]

I had some problems with the 225's but my 30-375R barrel had 1600 rounds through it.

I made a lot of hits at ELR distances on day one, didn't clean the barrel, and on day two the vertical was horrible.

Got back home and cleaned the barrel really thoroughly and the rifle shot good again with the same load and box of 225's???

Bullet rpm to an extent in some calibers is going to go up. Longer bullets usually need a faster twist, velocity plays a part but it’s only a part of it.....

A 308 win at 2700fps in a 12 twist barrel the bullet is coming out at 162,000rpm.

A 6mm that needs a 8 twist and lets just say the bullet is also coming out at 2700fps is spinning at 243,000rpm. This same silly little 6mm bullet at 3000fps is spinning at 270,000rpm.

And we all want faster right?

Now lets factor in Steve123 post about cleaning....we’ve been saying for a while that especially with over case capacity for bore size cartridges you have to keep up with the cleaning. Pick a round count or even say the frequency of cleaning. A shooter who doesn’t keep up with the cleaning and doing it properly how do you put the bullet maker on the hook for bullet failures let alone the barrel has a ton of rounds on it?

One of the guys in the shop was at a match last year....was scoring a shooter two different days. The shooter shot both F open and FTR. The open class gun was a 6.5mm and the FTR gun was a 223 Rem. He shot one brand of bullet in the open gun and a different brand in the FTR gun. Both rifles where blowing up bullets and the shooter was cursing both bullet brands. After he talked to the shooter the 6.5 had a round count in the area of 5k rounds and the 223 gun had in excess of 9k rounds. Dude the barrels are toast! Not a bullet problem in that case.

I recently had a nice conversation with two different bullet makers and we all agreed that approaching 300,000rpm bullet failure is going to go up. My comment was I draw the line in the sand and it’s 300k.

I’ve got a barrel in 6.5CM on a rifle and the twist is 1-6.75 and I have 147 Hornady’s and 150SMK and 153 ATIPs coming out at an honest 2700fps. The rpm is at 288,000. I’m shooting 135ATIPs at 2800fps and they are coming out at 298,666rpm. The barrel only has 300+ rounds on it as of right now. I’d have to double check my log book to be exact but I have had no bullet failures at all. I’ve shot the gun out to a 1k yards. I’ve also shot box Hornady 140ELDM’s with no issues but only out to 430 yards I’ve shot those.

I do feel I’m on borrowed time barrel life wise before failures will start to happen. I’m going to throw a round count of around 1200-1500 rounds is when it will start to happen. So your thinking why did I go with that fast of a twist? There where new bullets coming out and we where all guessing to some extent what twist was going to be needed to stabilize them. The thought was a 7 twist might not be fast enough. That’s why I did the 6.75.

Now throw in the guy that says....Hey 2700fps out of a 6.5 isn’t fast enough so he has to have a 6.5 that will throw that 140gr bullet @ 3400fps! He needs/wants faster/flatter/buck the wind better velocity etc.. but even in a 8 twist that’s giving you 306,000rpm. Guys are doing it but like I said how do we put the bullet makers on the hook when a bullet fails?

We all at times are pushing the envelope and have to sit down and take a look at what really is reality.

Later, Frank

 

[No i deer]

Thanks Frank for your in-depth reply..
I clean my rifle after most shoots..
Quite often no more than 40 shots. 2 x 2 & 15's . A few fowlers and 3 for HME card. More often than not the barrel gets to soak overnight sometimes even around 24 hours and I finish cleaning it when I get home from work..
If I've tested another load or put a few shots over the chrony then sometimes 50 odd shots..
So then
7mm saum
1 in 9 twist
180gr ELDM
63.6grs H1000
2960fps
Is the RPM ok on this..
I speak to other shooters who are using Reloader 25 and there doing around 100fps faster than me but their not using the 180gr ELDM's.
I dont think my velocity is exessive...
I'm not really familiar with a barrel nearing the end of its life..
I did take a 6.5 06 barrel to 2500 shots and had 2 consecutive 630yds rabbits the week it went off for a rebarrel..
I hear talk of fliers but they just move out of the grouping not missing a 4f square backing board..
Thanks NID

 

[steve123]

Bullet rpm to an extent in some calibers is going to go up. Longer bullets usually need a faster twist, velocity plays a part but it’s only a part of it.....

A 308 win at 2700fps in a 12 twist barrel the bullet is coming out at 162,000rpm.

A 6mm that needs a 8 twist and lets just say the bullet is also coming out at 2700fps is spinning at 243,000rpm. This same silly little 6mm bullet at 3000fps is spinning at 270,000rpm.

And we all want faster right?

Now lets factor in Steve123 post about cleaning....we’ve been saying for a while that especially with over case capacity for bore size cartridges you have to keep up with the cleaning. Pick a round count or even say the frequency of cleaning. A shooter who doesn’t keep up with the cleaning and doing it properly how do you put the bullet maker on the hook for bullet failures let alone the barrel has a ton of rounds on it?

One of the guys in the shop was at a match last year....was scoring a shooter two different days. The shooter shot both F open and FTR. The open class gun was a 6.5mm and the FTR gun was a 223 Rem. He shot one brand of bullet in the open gun and a different brand in the FTR gun. Both rifles where blowing up bullets and the shooter was cursing both bullet brands. After he talked to the shooter the 6.5 had a round count in the area of 5k rounds and the 223 gun had in excess of 9k rounds. Dude the barrels are toast! Not a bullet problem in that case.

I recently had a nice conversation with two different bullet makers and we all agreed that approaching 300,000rpm bullet failure is going to go up. My comment was I draw the line in the sand and it’s 300k.

I’ve got a barrel in 6.5CM on a rifle and the twist is 1-6.75 and I have 147 Hornady’s and 150SMK and 153 ATIPs coming out at an honest 2700fps. The rpm is at 288,000. I’m shooting 135ATIPs at 2800fps and they are coming out at 298,666rpm. The barrel only has 300+ rounds on it as of right now. I’d have to double check my log book to be exact but I have had no bullet failures at all. I’ve shot the gun out to a 1k yards. I’ve also shot box Hornady 140ELDM’s with no issues but only out to 430 yards I’ve shot those.

I do feel I’m on borrowed time barrel life wise before failures will start to happen. I’m going to throw a round count of around 1200-1500 rounds is when it will start to happen. So your thinking why did I go with that fast of a twist? There where new bullets coming out and we where all guessing to some extent what twist was going to be needed to stabilize them. The thought was a 7 twist might not be fast enough. That’s why I did the 6.75.

Now throw in the guy that says....Hey 2700fps out of a 6.5 isn’t fast enough so he has to have a 6.5 that will throw that 140gr bullet @ 3400fps! He needs/wants faster/flatter/buck the wind better velocity etc.. but even in a 8 twist that’s giving you 306,000rpm. Guys are doing it but like I said how do we put the bullet makers on the hook when a bullet fails?

We all at times are pushing the envelope and have to sit down and take a look at what really is reality.

Later, Frank

Yeah, I don't blame the barrel maker, it was something that krept up on me because I hadn't had that problem before, the barrel just got old, is firecracked, and nearly worn out.

It's a 9 twist.

 

[steve123]

Although..... I'm a bit cursed I think, lol, because my 20x47L 9 twist barrel started blowing 55gr Berger bullets up inside 300 rounds, these were going 3830 fps, and I cleaned it often. Slowed the load down to 3600 and still had the problem. Oddly 40vmax works great at 4100 fps???

And now my 7 twist 223AI/7twist going 2814 fps is doing the same with Hornady 88's which started around 300 down the pipe. I made a point to keep that barrel cleaned even better. Gonna have to try other heavy bullets now.

Annnnd 140gr Bergers would blow up at 3275 fps in my 8.5 twist 6.5 Saum during longer 10 round strings. Fine at 3175 fps, haven't had problems there and won some steel matches with that load.

 

[FrankG]

Yeah, I don't blame the barrel maker, it was something that krept up on me because I hadn't had that problem before, the barrel just got old, is firecracked, and nearly worn out.

It's a 9 twist.

Steve123, Just want you to know I wasn’t picking on you at all and hoped you didn’t take it that way. I was glad you brought up about cleaning and keeping up with it.

Later, Frank

 

[FrankG]

Although..... I'm a bit cursed I think, lol, because my 20x47L 9 twist barrel started blowing 55gr Berger bullets up inside 300 rounds, these were going 3830 fps, and I cleaned it often. Slowed the load down to 3600 and still had the problem. Oddly 40vmax works great at 4100 fps???

And now my 7 twist 223AI/7twist going 2814 fps is doing the same with Hornady 88's which started around 300 down the pipe. I made a point to keep that barrel cleaned even better. Gonna have to try other heavy bullets now.

Annnnd 140gr Bergers would blow up at 3275 fps in my 8.5 twist 6.5 Saum during longer 10 round strings. Fine at 3175 fps, haven't had problems there and won some steel matches with that load.

Your 20x47 at 3830fps the bullets are coming out spinning at 306,400rpm.

Your 223AI your bullets are coming out at 289,440rpm. If your going to try heavier I’d give the Sierra 90gr bullets a try first. The Bergers in my opinion still have a very high failure rate from what I see. I know Sierra redesigned they’re 90gr bullets a while back and seemed to solve that.

Your 6.5Saum your bullets are coming out at 277,411rpm and at 3175fps they are at 268,941rpm. You wouldn’t think it would make a difference but that slight change might in terms of the velocity/rpm and maybe how hot the barrel is/string of fire.

Velocity x 720 / twist = rpm

Don’t forget round count on the barrel and roughness of the throat can be factors as well.

Also I’ve said for years that the 5R style rifling does help fight bullet failure. Both Hornady and Sierra even confirmed that earlier last year to me. Also it wasn’t just data from one or two barrels that they’ve seen it from etc...it’s been XXX’s of barrels over the last several years that they’ve been using and in different calibers.

To the Sierra and Hornady guys.....Thanks for all you do and feedback you give!!!! It is truly appreciated!

Later, Frank