Hold off ??

[Texas Solo]

I'm new to F/TR shooting and still learning a ton of stuff. My weakest point is wind calls. Using a friends target cam, I was quickly able to adjust to a 3:00 hold on the 10 ring and shot a great score (147/150/7x) But practicing the other day in 10mph winds, I couldn't hit squat. I practice at 500 meters on a 10" steel plate. Shooting a custom built rifle in .223/80gr Bergers @ 3000fps.

My question is about hold off. How far should you hold off before making a scope adjustment? I fear making any adjustment during a match due to changing winds, but holding off 2 MOA (10") seems like a lot. Or is that a normal practice when necessary?

My theory is to get as close as possible with scope adjustment during a short practice session and sighters, then begin the hold offs as needed during the match. Am I on the right track or all wet?

 

[Ken Dickerman]

Personal choice, some do not mind holding out to the edge of the frame and fear turning knobs more. I am not comfortable holding more than 1 ring past the black so try to center up to prevailing conditions in sighters. Conditions are a factor. Steady wind sees most clicking. Switches left and right favor holding. But after sighters and starting for score, very few adjust knobs, so you are on track.

 

[Immike]

You are on the right track. It depends on what works for you. You should get some good input with this question. Some people won't touch that dial and some can't hold over too far. I will usually adjust the lowest value in and hold from there. Try everything and decide. Mike

 

[Hombre0321]

Texas Solo, you have already recieved some good advice, but my .02 cents worth. Yes you are going to have to decide for yourself what and maybe more important "When" to do it.

You have a huge advantage right now and that is the use of a target cam. This will tell you how and what to do for different wind conditions. You need to be shooting in the wind as well, and let the data just filter in. Another good thing to do is get a regulation F-Class target and a tape measure. This will tell you what a MOA is as it relates to the target for your hold off's. I do believe that as you gain experiance you will want to hold off and not be cranking on the scope, it is just to easy to get lost on your shots for record, and end up asking yourself 5 shots after you cranked in a correction " Did I just put in 1 MOA or was that two?" Sometimes you just don't have time to think about it. Good Luck!

Roland

 

[6BRinNZ]

Holding off is a personal preference thing. When I first started I was holding off by up to 6 MOA. But I don't feel this is the best approach. In part I was holding off because there was so much to process holding off was the easiest approach (This is possibly where you are coming from). I have changed my approach to click as I feel it is better in the long term. Sometimes you can click the wrong way when dealing with lots of changes...never happens with holding though

Clicking will start to give you a better understanding of the relationship to the flags and your bullet impact.

I hold off now up to 1 MOA - but this is to help get my shots away fast (often the wind is kind and has a nice ebb and flow when I do this) and is the only reason now.

Some things to think about -

if you hold it you can click it...its the same assessment.
Spend time looking at the wind cycles - don't worry about how many MOA yet, just look at the way the wind builds and drops or changes direction. When you start shooting decide where you are in that cycle...
Make up a wind chart that shows the flags and MOA for your load...use this to make choices.

Good luck - you have hit on the key thing to being good in this game no matter the ballistics...assessing the wind.

 

[kelbro]

I hold off and seldom crank knobs. Never paid much attention to MOA just steered the bullet into the X.

How many MOA are in each ring?

Say, from the 3 o'clock outer edge of the 10 ring to the 3 o'clock outer edge of the 9 ring? Is that 1 MOA?

Outer edge of the X to the outer edge of the 10, isn't that 1/2 MOA?

Got a couple of new Nightforce scopes and want to start learning knobs.

 

[Texas Solo]

Thanks for the replies. I think my problem is getting that initial adjustment within the 9 ring with only a few fouling shots/sighters. Once I find the sweet spot, I'm comfortable with hold off. I think I just need more trigger time in windy conditions.....which are EVERY DAY at my range. Good to learn in, but it sucks when you're having issues.
15mph winds today, which will change direction every 5 minutes. I'll call it a training day.

 

[Cody Richardson]

Coming from a sling shooters perspective, when I would shoot an fclass match here and there, I would always crank the knobs. Habit due to using irons where a hold off just won't work. However you mentioned getting lost in how much wind you have on the gun, best way to keep track is get a good score book and use it properly. One of the big rules of shooting in the wind is know exactly how much wind you have on the gun at all times. The use of a score book(such as Jim Owens's book) will let you log the wind correction you made with each shot! Hope this helps.

 

[Laurie]

Coming from a sling shooters perspective, when I would shoot an fclass match here and there, I would always crank the knobs. Habit due to using irons where a hold off just won't work. However you mentioned getting lost in how much wind you have on the gun, best way to keep track is get a good score book and use it properly. One of the big rules of shooting in the wind is know exactly how much wind you have on the gun at all times. The use of a score book(such as Jim Owens's book) will let you log the wind correction you made with each shot! Hope this helps.

+1 on both points. Clicking v aim-off is personal - I've tried both and moved back to clicking as per sling shooting, but I'd say a lot more people including many top competitors aim-off. It really is up to you and what suits. I get nervous aiming off too far and also worry about 'losing the plot' mid match especially if there is a large and sudden change in conditions - but many people seem able to keep a 'mental map' of previous conditions and how much aim-off they applied to the last three or four shots.

A lot depends on conditions however. If there are only minor changes between shots, it usually pays to shoot quick and aim-off. My 'rule' there is no further than the edge of the Bull-line (ie half-MOA) - beyond that, I click. If you do click, a good plot sheet with both applied and corrected wind is essential, and a quick glance at the turret markings every now and then to ensure what's 'on' the scope is actually what you think is 'on' it. If I take a quick aim-off shot, I still put the applied wind down on my plot but circle it so I know that the previous reading is the actual scope setting.

Plotting corrected wind values lets you see if there is a pattern to the wind and can be very valuable. I've shot in matches where there is a minimum corrected wind value that steadily rises over four or five shots then quickly falls back to the original value before repeating the process. Likewise, looking down a string of corrected values often shows a clear mid-point modal value, If you find yourself briefly stymied mid-match as to just where the wind is, that modal value won't be far out ... and so on. But we shoot in pairs with a 45 second rule in the UK and that means 2-3 minutes between shots, plenty time for significant wind changes and the need for a complete re-read. US String shooting probably favours the shoot-fast + aim-off approach.

 

[GarethMarijt]

Make up a wind chart that shows the flags and MOA for your load...use this to make choices.

Would you be willing to share the images that you used to make up your chart please?

Gareth

 

[Steve Blair]

Say, from the 3 o'clock outer edge of the 10 ring to the 3 o'clock outer edge of the 9 ring? Is that 1 MOA?

Outer edge of the X to the outer edge of the 10, isn't that 1/2 MOA?

[br]
First question: No, it is ~.5 MOA. You are thinking diameter and talking radius.
Second question: No, it is ~.25 MOA. See above answer.

 

[Steve Blair]

My scope has an NP-R1 reticle with hash marks at approximately 1 MOA (@42X) and I use those as necessary to hold. I can hold up to 10 MOA right or left and still use close to a center hold. The downside is keeping track of what mark I am currently using. If I see consistent vertical displacement, I will click elevation to maintain a waterline hold. [br]
There is no free lunch. Using my approach, it is possible to lose track of what tick to hold. Using knob twisting, it is possible to lose track of where you are. As Ken said; holding without reticle references can easily become a problem the further out you are. Try each approach and see what works for you.

 

[memilanuk]

For my own shooting... I will usually hold out to the edge of the 9-ring before adjusting my 'base' windage value. Generally speaking, I prefer to be aiming kind of close to where I want to hit - the MIDDLE... That said... I do better (in terms of score) when I can use a line or number or something on the target to actually aim at. Once the 'X' in the middle of the target goes bye-bye, I don't really like aiming dead center with no reference point.

In some team matches, the coach had us holding off as far as 4 lines (edge of the 8), with success. Usually when you're holding off that far... you are aiming more for the 10 than the X, if you know what I mean. For me, the reference marks are getting a little far apart for precision aiming when you're clear off in the tulies like that. I love it when they give me a hold-off like '3-1/8' scoring rings. Thats when they get a look like 'Really!?!'

I've seen enough people get bit using the hash marks in their reticle for hold-offs... sooner or later, you will mis-count, then adjust even more for the supposed change in wind, and then get well and truly lost.

 

[Steve Blair]

I've seen enough people get bit using the hash marks in their reticle for hold-offs... sooner or later, you will mis-count, then adjust even more for the supposed change in wind, and then get well and truly lost.

[br]
Monte, I appreciate what you're saying and it requires concentration to maintain current state awareness. For this reason, among others, I have been training myself to make absolute wind calls, not relative. That is; to look at the conditions and say "1.5 MOA left." That does not mean that state awareness is not required but reduces the problem of "getting lost." I am not completely there but making pretty good progress. My scores dipped when I first started trying to use this approach but have been steadily rising.

 

[kelbro]

Say, from the 3 o'clock outer edge of the 10 ring to the 3 o'clock outer edge of the 9 ring? Is that 1 MOA?

Outer edge of the X to the outer edge of the 10, isn't that 1/2 MOA?

[br]
First question: No, it is ~.5 MOA. You are thinking diameter and talking radius.
Second question: No, it is ~.25 MOA. See above answer.

Thanks. Appreciate it. Yes... radius v. diameter

 

[Laurie]

I've seen enough people get bit using the hash marks in their reticle for hold-offs... sooner or later, you will mis-count, then adjust even more for the supposed change in wind, and then get well and truly lost.

I'd agree 100% Monte. Nobody I know uses hash marks - why do so, when as you correctly point out you have a target with rings on that happen to be calibrated in MOA? The only thing to remember is that (with UK targets anyway) with the 1K target also used at 800 and 900 yards, each ring out from the centre will actually be slightly more more than half-MOA. 900 = 0.555-MOA; 800 = 0.625-MOA. I for one cannot and never will be able to read an 800 yard wind to within an eighth (0.125) of an MOA strength.

 

[Steve Blair]

I'd agree 100% Monte. Nobody I know uses hash marks - why do so, when as you correctly point out you have a target with rings on that happen to be calibrated in MOA?

[br]
Well, I can only report what I do and works for me. Others need to make their own decisions. If you come to Raton this year and introduce yourself, then your above statement will no longer be true.

 

[Laurie]

Hi Steve - no offence meant. Going back to the OP's questions, the answers (solutions? - probably not!) we keep coming back to all say, or all should say, something on the lines of: here are the possible options, you need to find out yourself what works for you.

Actually, I like a reticle with stadia. I have three Sightron 8-32s, two with the LRTD fine crosshairs / central dot; one with the LRMOA 'tactical' reticle / turret system. I like both models, but with a choice would always go for the LRMOA model with its 2-MOA hash marks when on 32-power even though I never use them to aim off. The reticle form seems to make it easier to centre the crosshairs on whatever you choose to aim at. (Apart from that I like the ease of zeroing target turrets without fiddling with a trio of tiny grub screws that I never seem to have an Allen key for.)

I've asked many of my 'aim-off' colleagues if they use hash marks, but nary a one does so, and that includes one individual whom I'm sure aims at the neighbouring target frame on occasions - a level of courage, I'd never aspire to!

 

[ryanjay11]

I use the same strategy as Monte. If I end up farther out than the 8 or 9 ring, I dial back to the center. This only works if you know your true no-wind zero. If it reverses, you must know where you are, or risk taking a very bad shot.

For the guys that only hold-off, I wonder if you have shot in anything but very mild winds. Even a steady 10 mph cross-wind changes everything. Do you hold the next target over? What if that target is down? What if you adjust power on your SFP scope?

 

[Steve Blair]

For the guys that only hold-off, I wonder if you have shot in anything but very mild winds. Even a steady 10 mph cross-wind changes everything. Do you hold the next target over? What if that target is down? What if you adjust power on your SFP scope?

[br]
Wow, this is really a thread for people with all the answers. Yes, Ryan, I've shot in high winds and not dialed. In fact, since I shoot only on Southwestern ranges, it is likely that our winds are a little stiffer than the tree-lined Eastern ranges. [br]
If your approach works for you, great. But why would you make a remark like the one quoted? Do you think if you cannot do something that no one can? Have you shot at Ben Avery when the wind is up? [br]
My scores have been reasonably competitive with other F-Open shooters, some of whom are better than me. So, it appears that a hold-only strategy can be made to work, just as can a dial-only or mixed.