Historical Benchrest question

[LHSmith]

You'll find it here under .222 Magnum http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/competition-cartridges/

 

[okie]

Bob Hart and Walker on that list---neat stuff--thanks for posting that!
Ed Shilen on there too...

 

[jamesdmock]

I have to ask. What is a 222½??

The 222 1/2 was a 222 mag with the shoulder pushed back to a point that gave it the capacity that was 1/2 way between a .222 and the magnum. or one could fireform the regular .222 and blow out the shoulder to give the extra capacity. James

 

[Greyfox]

The 222 1/2 was a 222 mag with the shoulder pushed back to a point that gave it the capacity that was 1/2 way between a .222 and the magnum. or one could fireform the regular .222 and blow out the shoulder to give the extra capacity. James

You can get really close to what it was/is by running a 222 Rem Mag case into a 223 die....long necked 223. Case capacity is a little more than a 223 and a little less than a 222 RM.

Rick

 

[GerryM]

wally hart won the nats one year with the 222 mag.

 

[snert]

Here is a scanned equipment list from PS Magazine for the 1965 Nationals. The second picture is from 1958.I hope that this is readable. JamesView attachment 1046803 View attachment 1046804

Ok, that page is GOLD! I have been trying to find who owned Sherman actions, and bingo, there it is. I own Crawford's Sherman now, after Fred Sinclair had it. Now a 22PPC, I guess it is a real antique!

 

[Bart B.]

This will give you a lot of the benchrest info. Some were shooting .308's
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?93774-Benchrest-History-Thread

As I remember, Ferris Pindell was a tool and die maker at Sierra Bulllets in 1958 and made the dies to produce the first batch of their 30 caliber 168 grain International Match bullet. Sierra's ballistic tech, Martin Hull, tested them with IMR4064 powder in WCC58 match 308 Win cases and was getting 10-shot test groups at 100 yards in the 2's and 3's. No other 30 caliber bullet was that accurate. They equalled what their best 22 caliber match bullets shot.

Ferris Pindel then rebuilt one if his benchrest rifles to 308 win, took it to a local match then won the aggregate with it shooting those 168's.

 

[okie]

Ok, that page is GOLD! I have been trying to find who owned Sherman actions, and bingo, there it is. I own Crawford's Sherman now, after Fred Sinclair had it. Now a 22PPC, I guess it is a real antique!

thats an historic item!

 

[snert]

thats an historic item!

And she shoots GREAT! Superior Rifle #7

 

[dmoran]

As I remember, Ferris Pindell was a tool and die maker at Sierra Bulllets in 1958 and made the dies to produce the first batch of their 30 caliber 168 grain International Match bullet. Sierra's ballistic tech, Martin Hull, tested them with IMR4064 powder in WCC58 match 308 Win cases and was getting 10-shot test groups at 100 yards in the 2's and 3's. No other 30 caliber bullet was that accurate. They equalled what their best 22 caliber match bullets shot.

Would like to see those results or links to that info.
10-shot groups at 100 yards in the 2's and 3's <> is a heck of an accuracy claim, especially of 60-years ago.

 

[Bart B.]

Would like to see those results or links to that info.
10-shot groups at 100 yards in the 2's and 3's <> is a heck of an accuracy claim, especially of 60-years ago.

All data on bullet testing is not on, nor linked to, on the internet. Nor on printed paper readily available. Ask Sierra about that.

I saw a couple from their archives at their California plant in the late 1960's that belonged to Martin Hull who loaded the ammo that shot them. Sierra's spec for quality was 1/4 inch average groups at 100 from rail guns at the time.

Those and others may have been in Hull's estate, along with his firearms and trophies, that were swindled from his widow and one other shooter by an estate lawyer who was also a top ranked rifle shooter I knew. He was caught, went to court, his licence revoked and law firm shut down. Don't know what happened to all that stuff.

 

[snert]

All data on bullet testing is not on, nor linked to, on the internet. Nor on printed paper readily available. Ask Sierra about that.

I saw a couple from their archives at their California plant in the late 1960's that belonged to Martin Hull who loaded the ammo that shot them. Sierra's spec for quality was 1/4 inch average groups at 100 from rail guns at the time.

Those and others may have been in Hull's estate, along with his firearms and trophies, that were swindled from his widow and one other shooter by an estate lawyer who was also a top ranked rifle shooter I knew. He was caught, went to court, his licence revoked and law firm shut down. Don't know what happened to all that stuff.

That shoulda happened to the "lawyer" who did the same to Ross Sherman's situation.

 

[dmoran]

I saw a couple from their archives at their California plant in the late 1960's that belonged to Martin Hull who loaded the ammo that shot them. Sierra's spec for quality was 1/4 inch average groups at 100 from rail guns at the time.

Those and others may have been in Hull's estate, along with his firearms and trophies, that were swindled from him and one other shooter by an estate lawyer who was also a top ranked rifle shooter I knew. He was caught, went to court, his licence revoked and law firm shut down. Don't know what happened to all that stuff.

If 1/4-inch average groups from 10-shots was Sierra's specs way back then, what are they today?

If that 168 was so capable at 100yds, how come they were not hardly used in group benchrest competition back in that era? (which was dominated by .219, .22, and 6mm bullets in those years).

My own knowledge of accuracy and historical studies of the shooting sports, greatly differ then many of your recollections and claims, when it comes to grouping capabilty.

 

[Bart B.]

If 1/4-inch average groups from 10-shots was Sierra's specs way back then, what are they today?
All match bullets shoot inside 1 inch at 200 yards in tests, last I heard. May be different today, ask them.

If that 168 was so capable at 100yds, how come they were not hardly used in group benchrest competition back in that era? (which was dominated by .219, .22, and 6mm bullets in those years).
Ask those who shot back then. My guess is too much recoil.

My own knowledge of accuracy and historical studies of the shooting sports, greatly differ then many of your recollections and claims, when it comes to grouping capabilty.
Everyone is not exposed to the same information

 

[dmoran]

Sierra's spec for quality was 1/4 inch average groups at 100 from rail guns at the time.

If 1/4-inch average groups from 10-shots was Sierra's specs way back then, what are they today?

All match bullets shoot inside 1 inch at 200 yards in tests, last I heard. May be different today, ask them.

So they lightened there "spec for quality" from 1/4-inch average at 100yds for 10-shots in 1958, to ability of inside 1" at 200 yards (1/2-MOA), is what your saying?

 

[jamesdmock]

If 1/4-inch average groups from 10-shots was Sierra's specs way back then, what are they today?

If that 168 was so capable at 100yds, how come they were not hardly used in group benchrest competition back in that era? (which was dominated by .219, .22, and 6mm bullets in those years).

My own knowledge of accuracy and historical studies of the shooting sports, greatly differ then many of your recollections and claims, when it comes to grouping capabilty.

When I interviewed Mr. Ferris Pindell in 2006, he said that he got most of his HOF points before the PPC. He went on to say that he shot the .308 in Unlimited, 6x47 in Sporter, and the .222 in the Varmint classes. he also told me that he shot three, consecutive 5-shot groups in the Sierra tunnel that averaged 0.127 inches with his .308. So I would assume that RECOIL was the reason he did not use the .308 in lighter rifle classes. Good shooting...James

 

[dmoran]

When I interviewed Mr. Ferris Pindell in 2006, he said that he got most of his HOF points before the PPC. He went on to say that he shot the .308 in Unlimited, 6x47 in Sporter, and the .222 in the Varmint classes. he also told me that he shot three, consecutive 5-shot groups in the Sierra tunnel that averaged 0.127 inches with his .308. So I would assume that RECOIL was the reason he did not use the .308 in lighter rifle classes. Good shooting...James

I can agree and likely so, that recoil may have been a reason.
Sierra's California tunnel was built in 1963 and the new one in Missouri in 1990. Ferris 3 consecutive 5-shot groups fired in it, is whole lot more conceivable to me then 10-shot averages of 1/4-inch in 1958.

 

[Bart B.]

So they lightened there "spec for quality" from 1/4-inch average at 100yds for 10-shots in 1958, to ability of inside 1" at 200 yards (1/2-MOA), is what your saying?

No, that's what you're saying.

Ask Sierra why they changed.

 

[expiper]

Jack Schaffer won the Unlimited portion of the Super Shoot with a .308 rail gun using Sierra 168 SMK's,,,,,the rail was a I beam with the edge sharpend (precursor to the Young style we see today) the bbl was Hart -14 twist ...Rem action ( I forget which model),,,,Roger

 

[dmoran]

Roger -
What year was that?
And what was his 10-shot, 100yd aggregate?

I know they were used some, but would have thought if they were averaging 1/4-inch for 10-shots like Bart says, they would have been used a lot more then they actually were.