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High BC Varmint bullets - needed

Hmmm I will have to chew on that a while.
“Practical” you do realize where your at here, lol.
I was inclined to go along with your idea on the 22 vs 20 a short few years ago.
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I then got educated one week on the plains, in the wind and mirage. I don’t ever see me not owning a 17 or 20 something. I am like others and would like to see available 55 and a bit heavier 20’s.
I like 20s. Unfortunately, according to applied ballistics, and my own drop testing at long range, the 20 cal 40-vax has probably the most over exaggerated BC out there...I still shoot a ton of them.

A 20 cal, 50 or 55 Vmax would surely be a great seller. I'd personally prefer to see 6mm 107-ish vmax, but a higher 10cal varmint offering would probably sell the most, once people chambered up faster twist barrels to handle it.
 
I think part of the problem is Thinner jackets, Fast Twist Barrels and Very High Velocity doesn't mix well. Things start to blow up. I know a guy that was shooting the 6mm 87gr Vmax out of a 7.5 twist and could only get the to 3400fps and they started blowing up. Maybe they feel there isn't enough demand to justify all the work. I my self understand what your after and would love to see someone come out with some High BC heavy varmint bullets.
On another note I think a 22 Dasher would be a nice round throated for some of the heavy Bergers .22 85.5gr LR Hybrids and maybe open the tips up a bit and see what happens.
Well, yeah...I know. You are absolutely onto something, on all accounts. They obviously feel the juice isn't worth the squeeze, or they would have done it. And they no doubt needn't be careful with too thinner a jacket on hi horse power rounds with fast twist, ornthe bullets won't make it to target...but IMO, its about starting the expansion quickly via a BIG HP filled in with some pointer plastic. Last, I WILL be experimenting next year with opening up some hybrids. Cheers
 
Has anyone used the Sierra 6mm 100 gr. Game Changer on varmints? I need a replacement for the 105 Vmax and wondered how they would work.

Thanks, John.
 
I have shot the 90gr Game changers out of my 6x204 and they shoot great but I haven't had a chance to try them on any live targets yet.
 
David Milisock you asked: "In your opinion at what range does your one shot clean kill drop off?"

To me that depends on a lot of variables. First, what do you consider long range on Prairie Dogs? I shoot with a couple of guys every year that you get razzed terribly if you shoot at one less than 700 yds. To do that and hit something regularly, one must be willing to spend some money on the rifle. Mine are the absoulute best I can build them. My 22-243 Imp is a Panda RBLP, 31" Kreiger 7.7 twist, Jewell trigger, and most important it has a Shehane T-1000 tracker stock. It sets in a full Benchrest front rest. The whole rig weighs a ton, but it will flat shoot! It does really well on 700-800 yds shots on PD's with quite a few first shot kills. It also pulerizes them. Some fly completely out of the scopes field of view. After that it gets tough. I went back and looked at my notes and best distance first shot kill with that rifle has been 948 yds. I've shot a number of dogs over a 1000 yds + with it, but never on the first shot. If I get one in 3-4 shots I'm happy. Sometimes it takes a lot more shots. Kills at those distances for aerial displays are not impressive, but the 75gr ELD-M still does better than anything I've tried. This type of shooting has to be something that the average shooter is not interested in. I am. As one of Ground Squirrel shooting buddies has said many times about me...I'd rather shoot one at a 1000 yds...he'd rather shoot a 1000 at a 100yds...LOL! Just my opinion. 7315br
Ok I get your game, I'm assuming plenty of free space around the dog town and severly changing wind through the day. That's what I experienced my shoots. Population control on a dog town keeps them healthy. Not just my opinion.

I mentioned plenty of free space around the dog town because over the last 20 years we got 3 women hit by varmint shooters in my area. However free space in South Central PA is getting scarce. I only stick to dedicated varmint projectiles so any impact on the smallest thing shuts it down. The terraced farm fields really produce eddy currents big time.

IMO you're getting good performance so my only advice would be, since you're pipe dreaming about new varmint projectiles is practicing reading the wind. By practicing I mean burning lots of barrels and powder. I load my 223 to 63,000 PSI, my 6MM Remington to 65,000 PSI and my 358 Norma Magnum to 64,000 PSI, barrel life is something I consider to be the cost of business.

The 40 grain VMAX in my 223 at 3,900 FPS vaporizes crows into yuck at 300 yards, mushes up chuck heads out to 350 on light gusty days. But out past 350 wind sensitivity has you body shooting. Heavier projectiles don't fair well due to trajectory issues in range estimates and time of flight with wind. Just not enough case capacity.

The 75 grain in my 6mm Remington at 3,900 FPS, has me making 80% one shot hits in much more varied wind than the 233 can handle on crows out to 400 yards, just makes mush of them. Check heads shots out to 400 are about the same with devastating results. Body shots out to 700 have been done but at 5000 plus the ratio drops to 50/50 maybe less.

Rifles are field grade, a Howa 1500 for the 223 and a Remington 700 BDL for the 6MM.

I mention this because of the weight, at 66 years old I feel your pain. The 358 Norma is a McGowan built rifle on an 03 Remington action, a 250 grain at 3,200 FPS, she's about 18 pounds, no taper barrel, I've taken 2 elk, one at a bit over 400 and another at a tad over 600. The 600 yards hit the near shoulder breaking it and exited the far rear side. It's a bear to get into the field produces 900 foot pounds more then a 338 WM with 225's and is 6" flatter at 600 yards. You'd like her!
 
Hmmm I will have to chew on that a while.
“Practical” you do realize where your at here, lol.
I was inclined to go along with your idea on the 22 vs 20 a short few years ago.
—————————————————————————————————————————————
I then got educated one week on the plains, in the wind and mirage. I don’t ever see me not owning a 17 or 20 something. I am like others and would like to see available 55 and a bit heavier 20’s.

One comment I saw said mentioned going to a .22 if you want a 55. Well with that type thinking, if you want over a 55, go to a 6mm in 55-58……..etc……..would have been a shame.

There are custom heavy 20’s out there, iffy on varmint work. They can come later once the 20’s prove themselves a bit more.

Lol, this thread may have well pushed me over the no looking back point on a 20BR.
I am not lost on the merits of the .20 Practical - as I've been shooting several since they started to become popular around eight or ten years ago. I'm barreling my 5th gun in that caliber at this time. My tens of thousands of rounds fired with that caliber have proved to me what a great gun it is and what the capabilities are. That said - I was responding to one's question as to why not go to a 6MM when shooting bullets in the 70-ish grain weights as opposed to a .22. The originator of this post started the post talking of "high volume" shooting. I shoot my 6BR, PPC, Dasher, .243, etc. all at varmints - and they pretty much all suck (comparatively to .22 ca. guns) when it comes to high volume due to either recoil, barrel heat, recoil, or all three. Yes - the Practical is an absolute slayer within the 400 yard range using what most barrels can shoot 32 - 40 grain bullets. I shoot thousands of rounds in a matter of days on a shoot - and I do them all the time - but when that wind kicks up and I'm shooting beyond 400 (where most of our shooting occurs where I go)- I'll set my .20 Practical aside and shoot my .22 Nosler. I've alternated them in conditions so many times that you just aren't going to convince me the Practical will prevail in real conditions - as much as I dearly love that cartridge. I own several very accurate .17's as well and it is a joke to even compare most .17's with the larger calibers - especially on the "prairie" in real conditions.

The 55 grain out of my .22 Nosler is running around 3,400 fps. and burning around 32 grains of powder. My .243 Winchester shoots a 58 V-Max at around 3,750 and burning about 44 grains of powder. That 25% extra powder to get not even 10% more velocity is what I'm talking about when it comes to "balance". My varmint-weight .243 is too hot to touch after fifteen rapid rounds. The Nosler is just getting warmed up. I can't tell you how many "contests" I've had with guys who poo poo A/R's and the .223's and .22 Noslers (and .20 Practicals!) when they are shooting their 6mm's. We go to 100 kills in the fastest time. I haven't been beat yet - and I know I couldn't win with a 6mm if someone else was a good shot and using my rig unless I was willing to destroy my barrel. Now we have some new 6mm's (like 6 mm ARC) that can absolutely change all that - but there are no heavy, ballistic efficient varmint bullets to shoot in them - so the alternative is to ricochet bullets for miles. And that goes back to the post originators complaint.
 
Personally I only shoot heavy, single shot benchrest guns at Prairie Dogs, and build will be the same...likely with 28" HV tube. I dont know...maybe longer.
RAG -
gr
Howdy !

Thanx for the info on your prefered varmint rifle configuration. I am in agreement with you.
I've been using a single shot action for 4+ decades. Even back when I had varmint rifles that we originally manufactured as repeaters ( " factory " stuff ); I had a single shot feed ramp installed in them.
I was shooting groundhogs, and did not feel a compelling need for having a rapid follow-up shot capability on them. Still don't, today.

I do think a good .224" cal 55gr varmint bullet shot from a high-intensity .224" cartridge should be good for reliable kills on groundhog out to 500yd..... or a skosh beyond; provided ...... a properly positioned hit.
However, my experience has been all MIDWEST shooting; and " wind " was not a large factor.

When I started having troubles seeing .224" cal holes on-paper @ 300yd when using a 2X-boosted
T-36, I changed to use of the larger calibre 6mm; in a wildcat of my own design.

In 6mm, I have tired the 88LD Berger, Sierra 95MK, 105-107gr Sierra and Berger VLD; and have settled on use of the Sierra 95T-MK for groundhog shooting. I fell my rifle/ cartridge combo shooting the 95T-MK gives me a valid 1,000yd capability for either varmint or target. I have not yet made 1,000yd kill on a groundhog, but it is certainly a goal I have in-mind. For such a shot, a 95T-MK would get the nod.


With regards,
357Mag
 
We shoot from a high plateau (6500' elevation) down across a valley that goes back up a hillside. It's the best I've seen for safe shooting. There's not a house or building for 15 miles. I'm afraid you don't know what wind is until you shoot the high elevation areas in Wyoming. It is a unbelievable challenge! Sometimes one only gets to shoot for :30-:45 after daylight because of winds. A 10:00am stop is excellent day.

My .22-243 Imp is still moving at slightly over 2,000 fps and 700+ ft. #'s of energy at 1000 yds with the 75 gr ELD-M. I shot a 6-284 for several yrs. at long range dogs. The 87 gr V-Max kinda runs out of steam around 800 yds, so I went to the 107 gr Sierra. It gets there okay but very seldom could I spot the hits because of recoil. I've also done a lot of work with both the 20BR and the 20/22-250 and the 55 gr Berger 20 caliber bullet. It will make the distance, but only punches pencil holes through the PD's past 7-800 yds. I gave up on the 20's past 700 yds because of the bullet performance even though I've killed a handfull of PD's at a 1000+ with the 20-22/250.

As usual I always regret having ever opened my mouth on any of these forums. 7315br
Don't regret posting...Im sure many, including myself, value your feedback/experience.

You're spot on regarding wind and "remoteness."

That 87 Vmax just might be the best LR varmint offering, but with .38 G1, it's BC is obviously lacking. We need that in something over 100 grains! And regarding the 20s, I shoot 20 Tac, and would do a 20 BR if they made 50 or 55gr Vmax or other poly tip offering.

I feel like there are enough guys with fast twist 22s, and 6mms, to justify high BC "varmint" offering...but no manufacturer has stepped up to the plate yet.
 
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Applied Ballistics gives the 6mm 90 grain Gamechanger a .411 G1 BC, vs .382 for the 87 Vmax. Not bad! I'm betting bullet will open up quickly, so no crawl-offs...but bullet isn't going to dessintegrate/grenade either.

Pic below of original GameKing vs new Gamechanger
 

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In all honesty on where I shoot colony critters, on a regular day I may get 3 hours at best to shoot past 4-500. On those days one needs to be set up early and ready. Had a couple of slight over cast days this year that allowed a bigger window. Mirage will get so bad most days by 10AM it’s like looking in the deep end of the pool.

With that being where I am at, is why I would press into service a heavy 20. I still take 22 and 6mm, but they see little use compared to the little ones.
I also have a 22Nosler, it just hasn’t cooperated with me as I would like in the accuracy department.


As mentioned prior in this thread, the demand is way shy to promote any production. Would be nice to see Starline offer up the 221 brass. That may be an easier battle.
 
Tapered jackets aren't new.. Now why can't we get a tapered jacket in a High BC varmint bullet! I'm no bulletsmith, but I'm picturing an ultra-thin jacket on leading .1 or .2", getting just thick enough so the bullets don't come apart on then higher RPM applications required to stabilize.
 
Okay...you are correct about "free space" as you call it. Where we do this long range PD shooting is very remote. It's miles back in and you never see anyone. But what's unique is the set-up for safety. We shoot from a high plateau (6500' elevation) down across a valley that goes back up a hillside. It's the best I've seen for safe shooting. There's not a house or building for 15 miles. We usually take two trucks back there in case of a vehicle problem. I'm afraid you don't know what wind is until you shoot the high elevation areas in Wyoming. It is a unbelievable challenge! Sometimes one only gets to shoot for :30-:45 after daylight because of winds. A 10:00am stop is excellent day.

I don't agree with you about the heavy projectiles...the game is B.C. for long range shooting. My .22-243 Imp is still moving at slightly over 2,000 fps and 700+ ft. #'s of energy at 1000 yds with the 75 gr ELD-M. Bullets in the 52-55 gr weights in .22 caliber don't cut it at long distance no matter how fast one pushes them at the muzzle. I shot a 6-284 for several yrs. at long range dogs. The 87 gr V-Max kinda runs out of steam around 800 yds, so I went to the 107 gr Sierra. It gets there okay but very seldom could I spot the hits because of recoil. Had to have a "good" spotter who knew how to call shots through a good spotting scope. I decided to much recoil and went back to the .22's. I've also done a lot of work with both the 20BR and the 20/22-250 and the 55 gr Berger 20 caliber bullet. It will make the distance, but only punches pencil holes through the PD's past 7-800 yds. I gave up on the 20's past 700 yds because of the bullet performance even though I've killed a handfull of PD's at a 1000+ with the 20-22/250.

As usual I always regret having ever opened my mouth on any of these forums. I feel like I have some experience and advice to offer in the type shooting I enjoy...soooo I occasionally do it. And by the way, hitting an Elk at 400 and 600 yds "ain't" no trick! Picture attached in my opinion of a real long range Varminter (22-243 Imp). 7315br
I actually agree with you on the heavy weight high BC projectiles, but don't expect the manufacturers to help you out with a real high BC varmint grade projectile free of charge. Depending on your resources in your situation you may want to explore working with a company to develop something. I got evolved with such development back in the seventies and in terms of dollars it wasn't too bad because of the help however the time invested was extreme and fun.

You guys are certainly being very safe in the environment and I'm envious of the space, all my family are here so moving is not a choice and even finding a high enough point to get a clear 800 yards is tough. So no projectiles that aren't specifically for varmints.

Wind is a bitch I did some work in Alaska years ago and I thought how friggin crazy it was the only advantage was if you could use the wind to hide your presence to stalk in. It's a different game then using a competition grade rife from prone.

By the way shooting dogs at long range is It's own game, it's sniping without the risk. Me shooting an elk at 600 with that rifle was nothing more then shameful. I was testing a projectile and it left a bad taste in my mouth, I'd have preferred stalking in and using an using an old iron sighted Mauser.
 
Has anyone used the Sierra 6mm 100 gr. Game Changer on varmints? I need a replacement for the 105 Vmax and wondered how they would work.

Thanks, John.
I hope that they are a heavier jacketed bullet meant for deer sized game. This is what I bought them for the 6x47L.
 
I was thinking your best bet is talk to a custom bullet maker. I know there are a couple of Varmint hunter sights like Coyote Stuff, Varmint master and one of the original small caliber hotrod sites saubier.com and a lot of guys liked fooling with heavy's for small cal bullets and there were several custom bullet makers. one popular .17 bullet maker was Kindler back in the day. I know he stopped making them but a younger guy bought all his equipment and has been making them and others. He seems open to ideas and toys new things. I bought some of his heavy 30gr BT .17 bullets for my .17 BLackRock, a wildcat based on the .17 Rem, and they shoot great and are real explosive.
Here is a little bit on one of his bullets just so you have some info and his phone number is in one of the photos on the bag of bullets. I have talked to him many times and is a great guy. The Bullets are now
Texas Gold
 
I was thinking your best bet is talk to a custom bullet maker. I know there are a couple of Varmint hunter sights like Coyote Stuff, Varmint master and one of the original small caliber hotrod sites saubier.com and a lot of guys liked fooling with heavy's for small cal bullets and there were several custom bullet makers. one popular .17 bullet maker was Kindler back in the day. I know he stopped making them but a younger guy bought all his equipment and has been making them and others. He seems open to ideas and toys new things. I bought some of his heavy 30gr BT .17 bullets for my .17 BLackRock, a wildcat based on the .17 Rem, and they shoot great and are real explosive.
Here is a little bit on one of his bullets just so you have some info and his phone number is in one of the photos on the bag of bullets. I have talked to him many times and is a great guy. The Bullets are now
Texas Gold
The coyote stuff guy has a solid grasp of reduced time of flight for field shooting at ranges out to 500 yards.

Maybe he'd be interested in sharing resources to develop a high BC heavy for caliber varmint grade projectile.
 
I realize I'm kidding myself, hoping for any new products when manufactures can't even fill current order these days...

BUT, I sure wish somebody would come out with high BC, plastic tipped, varmint bullets. Seems Hornady could do that quite easily, and seems they had that with the old A-Max...only apparent deficit with those was bullet profile/ogive had low BC relative to weight class. Gosh...throw a thinner jacket the ELD lineup, and some of that old-school plastic that softened in route to target, and we'd have Vmax-ELD! Maybe little bigger meplat/plastic tip too by way of slightly shorter jacket.

Wishful thinking I suppose...
Do you ever use/ try Hornady 53g .224 Vmaxes? Just a thought.
 

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